Feeder Clubs | Page 4 | Vital Football

Feeder Clubs

But that's absolutely in the smaller clubs' favour. The economies of scale just aren't there to run a decent academy... If Lincoln spent £250,000 a year on one we'd need to produce a Woodyard every season to break even. And that just ain't going to happen.

Instead, let the Premier League plough in the money, loan in some of the prospects and pick up the best of what they don't consider good enough. Personally I see no negative. Have I missed something?

You're right about that except for the lack of playihg opportunities.

Many of them could be ready for 1st team football at 18/19 - even younger in exceptional cases - at lower levels, but retaining them in the U23s hampers this.

Most are never going to make it in the top flight in any case, so what is the point in further development of players once they've reached 19? I made the example of Dabo earlier and O'Hara the Macclesfield keeper.

Even sending them out on loan - for those that get sent out on loan - doesn't resolve the issue because once the loan is over they're back where they started. There is no chance to become established, as is the case of the 23 year old Pasalic of Chelsea who has played top flight football for one season each in Spain, France, Italy, Russia and now Italy again.

It would work better if PL clubs were told they had limited squad spaces available and they have to decide by, say, 19 if a player is going to be retained by them. If not, they are either sold or their contract is cancelled.

In case they turn out to be any good after all, I'd even be in favour of a buy-back option for the PL club after 1 or 2 years - but only on condition that the player can't then be resold for at least 2 years after the buy back.
 
I can't find the article but I'm sure I read recently (on BBC football) that an idea under consideration is for PL clubs to be limited to having 10 players out on loan at any one time - probably with Chelsea in mind. This could help stop the hoarding of young players that goes on at the huge clubs.
 
I can't find the article but I'm sure I read recently (on BBC football) that an idea under consideration is for PL clubs to be limited to having 10 players out on loan at any one time - probably with Chelsea in mind. This could help stop the hoarding of young players that goes on at the huge clubs.

That will perhaps stop the hoarding of developed players and prospects scouted and bought from overseas, but I doubt it'll have any effect on the British youngsters who get hoovered up, all of whom know they have a one in 10 chance of making the grade anyway.

If I'm wrong and it leads to leaner youth teams, where do the dumped kids go? Does Morecambe, for instance, have a Tier 1 academy? Does Morecambe as a town have the pulling power? Can its scouting network match Chelsea's? And would they be happy throwing 17-year-olds into a League Two relegation dogfight?

Most lower league clubs simply do not have the cash or the time to develop masses of kids into professional footballers - cash poor and never looking past the year's budget their teams are largely composed of frees and loans. Curtail the PL academies and it will have a knock-on effect in the lower leagues - but I don't think it will be the one people are hoping for.

Fact is there have been very few clubs through the years who have developed a first team from its youth system. Off the top of my head Manchester United had one generation, and Crewe had a good reputation for a while. But I can't think of anything beyond that.
 
Fifa bans overseas transfers of children under 18. Up to 16 a kid has to live within an hour and a half drive from their club.

So clubs can buy in from 18 and those players are considered 'home grown' by Uefa at 21. But largely, because of the Fifa ban on minors and radius restrictions, academies are stocked with a lot of local British kids. And 90 percent of them are out of professional football by 21 years of age.

This thesis is interesting, chapter 2's case study of an academy in particular. http://researchonline.ljmu.ac.uk/5656/1/421405.pdf

http://www.espn.co.uk/football/sout...n-south-africa-based-wonderkid-jayden-adetiba
 
while the country has 92 senior clubs, the number of pro footballers that get a regular game stays the same. so regardless of the quality there will be the same number of discards. i agree that the situation suits lower league teams, and have always thought we should build a bridging squad of ex top academy discards. because our academy can never compete with the championship and above for early academy prospects. let the better academies do the development work upto 16/17/18. for the first time, we now have great coaches at senior level that can then develop the discards further.
 
I think clubs often look to move the families or find foster families for the kids to get round that rule? I know this season the club advertised looking for homes.
I may have misunderstood though either what the club was doing or you meant international youngsters.
 
But that's absolutely in the smaller clubs' favour. The economies of scale just aren't there to run a decent academy... If Lincoln spent £250,000 a year on one we'd need to produce a Woodyard every season to break even. And that just ain't going to happen.

Instead, let the Premier League plough in the money, loan in some of the prospects and pick up the best of what they don't consider good enough. Personally I see no negative. Have I missed something?
I'm not sure how much the Club contribute towards an Academy. Isn't most covered by youth funding and grants?
 
I'm not sure how much the Club contribute towards an Academy. Isn't most covered by youth funding and grants?

Yes, which is why we were struggling to keep it going after relegation. Only the likes of Chris Moyses and Roger Bates held it together.
 
are the premier league academies actually full of 'homegrown' players? i thought the chelsea u23 squad last season had a few non-english players in it. who are presumably bought in at some stage of their academy development.

It isn't just that. They have become competitors for the young talent. One academy will sweetatlk the parents of an academy player from another academy into joining theirs (our academy players have more chance of reaching our first team etc.)

The days of a player joining a club at age 8-13 and reaching the first team of the same club are virtually gone. Most of these players are on their 2nd or 3rd academy before they even get that only 1 minute cameo in the Premier league.........before goin on loan (with a view to permanent) lower down the league.
 
Lots of young footballers will be considering university next year then!
 
I can't find the article but I'm sure I read recently (on BBC football) that an idea under consideration is for PL clubs to be limited to having 10 players out on loan at any one time - probably with Chelsea in mind. This could help stop the hoarding of young players that goes on at the huge clubs.

The "Chelsea model" was never about hoarding players (as such.) What they do is scour the world for talent and bring them all in at young ages. They aren't really the reason for blocking young players route to the first team.

Most of the players they buy up, they buy young and cheap, loan them out and then sell at profit. They are never going to get near the first 11 for big games other than a few minutes cameo.

Of course there are exceptions like Courtois who actually make it back to their owner's first team but most of those (kaboodles of) foreign players out on loan across Europe are a business model rather than prospects for Chelsea.

There are also the ones that were meant for the first team, bought for big money (like Batshuayi) but haven't made the grade so these shouldn't be confused with the young, cheap imports.

Then with the "homegrown" bit there is a rule about having a certain amount of homegrown players at a club. That is why English playerrs often cost so much more than foreign imports. The so called "English Premium."

It isn't as simple as teams buying foreigners because they are better OR because they are cheaper. An English player good enough for a first 11 place at Premier League level (in contract) is going to cost at least double the equivalent foreign player. The best English players are fought over by clubs to abide with the "homegrown" rule.

So we see players like Milner cost fortunes. Walker & Sterling cost fortunes despite their contracts only having a short amount left.

Then we have this new academy status thingamy which means those clubs with the best academys (now graded) have a much bigger zone to pull players from. Academies are poaching players from other academies. And yes because of the homegrown rule (5 years development at a club) they are buying very very young from abroad as well.

I don't really think there is a solution to this at the moment. The system (like everything to do with money) is sold as beneficial for this and that by the FA, UEFA & FIFA but it really is all about "elite" football.

It is setup to allow the big clubs to do whatever they want to get the best players and rather than have a smaller net and less places like good academies used to do, academies (and clubs in general) are like trawlers that rake in mass amounts of young footballers. Not caring much about them as people and vast amounts of them are discarded.

Lots of players at our level, L1 and Championship have come from PL academies, never got near the first team and were discarded. A few decades ago lots of players advanced through the leagues as they progressed. These days hardly any do. They drop down the leagues. The Vardy example is now a very very rare occurance.

A player like Gareth Macauley these days would have been "brought" by a PL academy to be sat there until they decided he was good enough or not. He would not have come over to a small team and progressed through the leagues to reach the Prem.

At the end of the day it isn't really the PL clubs to blame. It is the system that "world football" including the FA have setup and sold as "for the kids." It is all about the money at the top and money in general.

Same as the "building top notch 3G pitches and training up youth coaches to X level" (so we can compete with Brazil whose kids learn on dust patches and streets coached by the bloke who is into football.) Building loads of 3G pitches just means that kids/parents are priced out of football. Training all the coaches means that some coaches are priced out of football. Being in a kids football team (unless the kid is good enough to be "discovered" by a top academy) is very expensive. Petrol, entry fee etc. So the kid from a "poor" household these days can't even afford to play for the local Sunday league side.

We have to travel to places like Retford, Boston etc for my boy. I daresay there are lots and lots of potentially talented young lads in the UK whose parents cannot afford the £140 club registration each year and the petrol money to places like Boston and back each fortnight.

THAT is where the FA should be investing their money. In local academies and making football more accessible.

It is about money. That is why the big clubs "hoard" players. Like trawlers that catch everything except they don't throw the sprats back into the sea until they have grown up.
 
Fifa bans overseas transfers of children under 18. Up to 16 a kid has to live within an hour and a half drive from their club.

So clubs can buy in from 18 and those players are considered 'home grown' by Uefa at 21. But largely, because of the Fifa ban on minors and radius restrictions, academies are stocked with a lot of local British kids. And 90 percent of them are out of professional football by 21 years of age.

This is typical bluster to make out they are good. Like a lot of things in this modern world sold as a good beneficial thing but not really in action.

There are multitudes of non homegrown "under 18" players in Premier league academies and in academies across Europe.

The "hour and a half" thing for academies in the UK was the old rule. Clubs used to get around that by putting "satellite academies" around the country and thus scouting players from everywhere in the UK.

The new "tier 1" academies do not have to follow that rule anymore.

If you checked out many of the Premier League academy pages you will find a lot of overseas players that have "relocated." Like the Arsenal example above.
 
This is typical bluster to make out they are good. Like a lot of things in this modern world sold as a good beneficial thing but not really in action.

There are multitudes of non homegrown "under 18" players in Premier league academies and in academies across Europe.

The "hour and a half" thing for academies in the UK was the old rule. Clubs used to get around that by putting "satellite academies" around the country and thus scouting players from everywhere in the UK.

The new "tier 1" academies do not have to follow that rule anymore.

If you checked out many of the Premier League academy pages you will find a lot of overseas players that have "relocated." Like the Arsenal example above.

Thanks GreenNeedle, didn't realise the rules had changed, nor was I aware of the get-arounds.
 
The "Chelsea model" was never about hoarding players (as such.) What they do is scour the world for talent and bring them all in at young ages. They aren't really the reason for blocking young players route to the first team.....

Yes, Chelsea have their own reasons for the ownership of young players, the same reason that led to the demise of Parma, but as I said in an earlier post, it's not to the career benefit of the players they send out on loan - including the 20 British ones this season. I admit there could well be a (current) financial benefit to those players.

Real Madrid used to be criticised for their youth policy too. For many years La Fabrica (the factory) produced a large number of top quality players, hardly any of which made it to the first team, but they always made a profit on selling the better ones to other clubs. Nevertheless, nothing clubs like Getafe have done very well out of signing Real Madrid cast offs.

The solution is to curtail the ownership of players by top sides so that they have to make a decision about which 18/19 year olds they're going to keep and which they will have to release. Then those players will find their level.
 
Thanks GreenNeedle, didn't realise the rules had changed, nor was I aware of the get-arounds.

Academies like Southampton's back in the 80s 90s setup satellite academies. Hence Bale etc. Bale came through the "Bath" satellite academy which was within an hour and a half of his home in Wales whereas Southampton wasn't.
 
Academies like Southampton's back in the 80s 90s setup satellite academies. Hence Bale etc. Bale came through the "Bath" satellite academy which was within an hour and a half of his home in Wales whereas Southampton wasn't.

Unless the academies are a forwarding address with no infrastructure, I honestly can't see anything wrong with this.