Fans owned club

[OneSirKeefy]

You are entitled to your view Waldo and if you believe we are moving in a positive direction then I respect that you have that view.

I don't agree with you though.

Maybe over a 10 or 15 year period the trend is down. But nowhere near what you (and the SOB drivers) would have us believe.

Eddie whatisname said on the GiTB forum that our crowds have gone down by 2/3. Said after the Cheltenham game which he maintains was 2k, and pitted against our best crowds of 6 and 7k 5 years ago. Laughable. We’ve had 2x near 7k crowds this season. And our 7.3k v Charlton, was only a few hundred short of the 7.7k approx v them that I saw back then under JED.

But when questioned he maintains our previous crowds averaged 6k plus. That’s correct, but as of this moment we are averaging a tad under 5k. Hardly a massive drop, and we are currently losing every week.

As I keep beating my head against a wall with, our gates actually improved from Lovell to SE because we started winning. Despite all those 100’s of fans that are “staying away because of SE”. If we were currently 10th I reckon the crowds would be higher again this year and this wouldn’t even be a conversation. It’s mainly because we are losing.

So, I don’t doubt crowds are decreasing generally. And I’ve no doubt some of that is PS “fault” and he could do a lot more to raise them.

But it’s been proved they will increase with winning games. Our crowd doesn’t do losing very well. They never have. The very definition of “fair weather fans”.

 

[markinkent]

Scally says “I don’t know what Scally Out means”.

It’s incumbent on the SOB to explain what it means. That means they needs to have a Point of View about what is acceptable to them otherwise they’ll be no end to shenanigans.

From my perspective I'm not sure I can explain it any clearer than I previously have. Let's park this part of the debate until something different comes along to add to the discussion.

 

[markinkent]

Maybe over a 10 or 15 year period the trend is down. But nowhere near what you (and the SOB drivers) would have us believe.

Eddie whatisname said on the GiTB forum that our crowds have gone down by 2/3. Said after the Cheltenham game which he maintains was 2k, and pitted against our best crowds of 6 and 7k 5 years ago. Laughable. We’ve had 2x near 7k crowds this season. And our 7.3k v Charlton, was only a few hundred short of the 7.7k approx v them that I saw back then under JED.

But when questioned he maintains our previous crowds averaged 6k plus. That’s correct, but as of this moment we are averaging a tad under 5k. Hardly a massive drop, and we are currently losing every week.

As I keep beating my head against a wall with, our gates actually improved from Lovell to SE because we started winning. Despite all those 100’s of fans that are “staying away because of SE”. If we were currently 10th I reckon the crowds would be higher again this year and this wouldn’t even be a conversation. It’s mainly because we are losing.

So, I don’t doubt crowds are decreasing generally. And I’ve no doubt some of that is PS “fault” and he could do a lot more to raise them.

But it’s been proved they will increase with winning games. Our crowd doesn’t do losing very well. They never have. The very definition of “fair weather fans”.

I think we are looking at the data through different lenses OSK. I'm looking at the home percentage of the crowd which has undoubtedly dropped. The 7K crowds are swelled by the away support. Of course that still counts towards the overall average and the away fans ticket price is worth just as much as the home fans

I'll maintain that just over 4000 gills fans against Pompey is poor and home support against the bigger teams e.g. Charlton was poor as well.

When we play against the unfancied teams it drops to below 4000.

I will continue to argue the home support has dropped considerably in the last 6 years. By all means argue against that view.

I suggest we park the discussion until the end of the season when we can look at the season average. In truth I'm more interested in the future what does next season look like and how do we try to prevent a step reduction in attendances (home support). If we do go down then there aren't too many big clubs to fill the away stand and boost the coffers

 

[Tarian]

Again - please read what I wrote.
>edited<
You hardly made it clear that you were talking about reintroducing cash turnstiles, which by the way I hardly see as realistic in the current climate.

Is ONE cash turnstile at each stand too much to ask ?
Queues ought to be shorter than at the T.O.
But if queues occur:
a) it indicates demand
b) the casual fan can decide whether to buy on-line next time (assuming info. is actually displayed !!!)

"current climate" ?
Or perhaps, "how customer focused" ?

You might think long waits on the phone are unacceptable. My point is that getting through immediately to any organisation is almost completely unheard of in my experience.

I'm genuinely sorry to hear that.
But there are plenty of organisations that:
a) a person answers immediately
b) after pressing button #? a person answers immediately.
c) the wait is a minute or so (after those irrelevant messages)

Either way, you are way more patient than I am - or it's not in your nature to signal discontent by going elsewhere.

What makes Gills different in that respect ?

There are differences.
Why should Gills copy poor behaviour ?
Gills should decide what sort of image it wants to show to its customer base....
i.e. to its core support of 3-4000 - and to the potential '000s beyond that.

What makes Gills different in that respect ? Illogical.

Nothing to do with "logic".
It's a choice - approach to business - internally or externally focused ?
Content with steady, but low turnover - or looking to increase income ?

 

[OneSirKeefy]

I think we are looking at the data through different lenses OSK. I'm looking at the home percentage of the crowd which has undoubtedly dropped. The 7K crowds are swelled by the away support. Of course that still counts towards the overall average and the away fans ticket price is worth just as much as the home fans

I'll maintain that just over 4000 gills fans against Pompey is poor and home support against the bigger teams e.g. Charlton was poor as well.

When we play against the unfancied teams it drops to below 4000.

I will continue to argue the home support has dropped considerably in the last 6 years. By all means argue against that view.

I suggest we park the discussion until the end of the season when we can look at the season average. In truth I'm more interested in the future what does next season look like and how do we try to prevent a step reduction in attendances (home support). If we do go down then there aren't too many big clubs to fill the away stand and boost the coffers

Yes. We’ll park it.

2 quick points tho.

1/ Did we not have away fans in bygone years then? Averages then and now include home and away.

2/ We’ve had large away followings for Charlton, Pompey etc, but none v Cheltenham, Morecambe and the like. It all averages out. Same in bygone years.

Agree, crowds will definitely go down next season unless we climb away from the bottom reaches.

 

[SE1_Gills]

Leveraged Buy Outs, not for me thanks.

I could give you a list as long as my arm of businesses (predominantly hospitality) that have gone down the swanny after being acquired in that manner.

The trigger is for revenue to decline, servicing the debt becomes tough and then covenants are breached around the funding. Hello administration.

 

[markinkent]

Yes. We’ll park it.

2 quick points tho.

1/ Did we not have away fans in bygone years then? Averages then and now include home and away.

2/ We’ve had large away followings for Charlton, Pompey etc, but none v Cheltenham, Morecambe and the like. It all averages out. Same in bygone years.

Agree, crowds will definitely go down next season unless we climb away from the bottom reaches.

1 - yes

2 - yes and the end of season average will tell us the difference.

On the plus side the queues for the half time bogs are much shorter. Handy for those of us of a certain age

 

[Tarian]

My problem is that I see putting the club up for sale formally will in itself carry a huge risk. We may think everyone knows exactly the situation at Gillingham. I’m sure that people don’t take that close an interest. What do you think the reaction in the wider world would be to Gillingham FC being put up for sale ? Remember, any business the size of Gillingham is dependant on credit and the goodwill of suppliers. Is there not a danger that creditors would be spooked and suppliers would be less willing to supply because they fear that the club is in financial trouble ? The danger I see is that the very action of putting the club up for sale in a very public way would precipitate a financial crisis that we are not currently in. The cynic in me suggests that is exactly what the Scally Out mob want as many of them have argued that any damage to the club is worth it if it gets Scally out. Precisely why I have no time for them.

May I suggest that this sentiment seems "glass half empty" around the condition of GFC Ltd.

The mere act of putting a company up for sale should not ordinarily;
"precipitate a financial crisis".
Surely what matters is whether the business is fundamentally sound ?

Let's suppose that you are correct. ("precipitate a financial crisis")
Surely that would imply an unsound business ?

If so, then surely it would be reasonable to conclude that Mr S is over-valuing GFC ?
(So his theme of "no credible offers" really does mean "not offering what I want".)

Put another way....
If Mr S's valuation is reasonable,....
Why should there be a "financial crisis" ?

 

[Therealwaldo]

May I suggest that this sentiment seems "glass half empty" around the condition of GFC Ltd.

The mere act of putting a company up for sale should not ordinarily;
"precipitate a financial crisis".
Surely what matters is whether the business is fundamentally sound ?

Let's suppose that you are correct. ("precipitate a financial crisis")
Surely that would imply an unsound business ?

If so, then surely it would be reasonable to conclude that Mr S is over-valuing GFC ?
(So his theme of "no credible offers" really does mean "not offering what I want".)

Put another way....
If Mr S's valuation is reasonable,....
Why should there be a "financial crisis" ?

“Ordinarily” is not a term that you could use about football when talking about business in general. There wouldn’t have been a Government led inquiry into football governance if there wasn’t a general view that the financial position of all clubs below the premier league is flaky at best. My point wasn’t a reflection on Gillingham In particular. The same thing could happen at any club.

 

[Tarian]

“Ordinarily” is not a term that you could use about football when talking about business in general. There wouldn’t have been a Government led inquiry into football governance if there wasn’t a general view that the financial position of all clubs below the premier league is flaky at best. My point wasn’t a reflection on Gillingham In particular. The same thing could happen at any club.

Please forgive me for re-asking the question.

If the business is sound then why would there by a "financial crisis" ?

Alternatively, if there is a risk of a "financial crisis" could that also mean that Mr S is over-valuing GFC ?

Can you outline a scenario when both directions could apply simultaneously ?

 

[Therealwaldo]

Please forgive me for re-asking the question.

If the business is sound then why would there by a "financial crisis" ?

Alternatively, if there is a risk of a "financial crisis" could that also mean that Mr S is over-valuing GFC ?

Can you outline a scenario when both directions could apply simultaneously ?

That’s a very obtuse question. “Sound” in football club terms doesn’t mean any club can ride out a financially destabilising event. Are you seriously suggesting that there are any football clubs that are holding cash reserves in the event of an adverse business situation ? Surely we can all agree that financial life in the lower leagues is at best a hand to mouth existence. If it wasn’t, why has Tracey Crouch been running a review (which incidentally was precipitated by the collapse of Bury FC) ?

You’re also talking about Scally valuing the club when there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the failure to find investment has anything to do with the valuation of the club. The issues that Scally has identified are that investors have failed to show that they actually have funds available and that they have a credible plan for moving the club forward. He hasn’t actually suggested that he’s looking for anyone to buy out his interest in the club. That’s an assumption that you’re making,

 

[Lark]

He hasn’t actually suggested that he’s looking for anyone to buy out his interest in the club. That’s an assumption that you’re making,

I agree with this point.
He seems to be looking for investors to become partners or directors that he can form a board with.
My guess is Scally would retain a majority share and therefore a controlling interest in the club.
We will have to wait and see what happens, I suspect nothing, short term.

 

[Tarian]

That’s a very obtuse question. “Sound” in football club terms doesn’t mean any club can ride out a financially destabilising event. Are you seriously suggesting that there are any football clubs that are holding cash reserves in the event of an adverse business situation ? Surely we can all agree that financial life in the lower leagues is at best a hand to mouth existence. If it wasn’t, why has Tracey Crouch been running a review (which incidentally was precipitated by the collapse of Bury FC) ?

You’re also talking about Scally valuing the club when there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the failure to find investment has anything to do with the valuation of the club. The issues that Scally has identified are that investors have failed to show that they actually have funds available and that they have a credible plan for moving the club forward. He hasn’t actually suggested that he’s looking for anyone to buy out his interest in the club. That’s an assumption that you’re making,

That's a brilliant - and subtle, swerve !

Your post #103 was about the "huge risk" of "putting up for sale" - to which I responded.
Now you're talking about "investment" or lack of.
Ok, I'll bite.

Under what circumstances would someone invest in GFC ?
Shares ?
How likely, if one person remains in control ?
(.... and if "valuation" is not a relevant factor for a potential new investor/shareholder, what is ?)

Loan ?
At what interest rate ?
If not high, then presumably with either :
a) Share of GFC's income - or profit. On what formula ?
b) Option to buy shares ? ( again, the % retained by one person might be relevant)

Any other ways to invest ?

Anyway, my response to your post #103 was to enquire about the idea that GFC was worth what the owner apparently thinks it is....
....while simultaneously being at "huge risk" of "financial crisis".

 

[Therealwaldo]

That's a brilliant - and subtle, swerve !

Your post #103 was about the "huge risk" of "putting up for sale" - to which I responded.
Now you're talking about "investment" or lack of.
Ok, I'll bite.

Under what circumstances would someone invest in GFC ?
Shares ?
How likely, if one person remains in control ?
(.... and if "valuation" is not a relevant factor for a potential new investor/shareholder, what is ?)

Loan ?
At what interest rate ?
If not high, then presumably with either :
a) Share of GFC's income - or profit. On what formula ?
b) Option to buy shares ? ( again, the % retained by one person might be relevant)

Any other ways to invest ?

Anyway, my response to your post #103 was to enquire about the idea that GFC was worth what the owner apparently thinks it is....
....while simultaneously being at "huge risk" of "financial crisis".

Your political slip is showing, i.e. don’t answer the question, pretend you have, raise another point i.e. “could that also mean that Mr S is over-valuing GFC ?” then say it’s me that’s changing the subject when, in fact, you did. Sorry but I’m not playing that silly game.