Europe In Out Shake it all about | Page 329 | Vital Football

Europe In Out Shake it all about

This topic might need its own thread.

It was striking that the only argument Billy Hutchinson could make for the Union was that it has the NHS.

The Sinn Fein side don't even bother putting forward an argument for a united Ireland.

I'm not seeing any easy solutions or happy endings here.
 
wittonite said:
I dont think its that at all dan. In the case of the Scots I think people in England are just sick to the back teeth of hearing the Scots Nats banging on about the aweful English at every opportunity.
Add in to the mix the free prescriptions, dentist, and university thing plus the huge deficit the Scots run at Englands expense, and it all wears a bit thin at times.
That fuckin idiot Ian Blackford doesnt help matters talking shite in Parliament every chance he gets, and it all adds to the drip drip effect that Scotland will never be happy, the genie is out of the bottle and they will go, its just a matter of time.
As for NI. I really dont know the answer over there, it has been a running sore for years, and its all to easy to blame Brexit, but the truth is it never really went away, and I suspect its criminality at the back of this latest outbreak, with the young and gulliable being manipulated once again.
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Re:Scotland - absolutely, I think the nursing pay/bonus is an insult to the English nurses, where the devolved nations could give a bonus. I actually get the feeling Scottish independence is a bit dead, yes the polls are close - they always are - but the Scots I saw on the news seemed overall pragmatic about the situation. You do have to be careful with the people in the news, because they don’t represent society fairly as they’re normally middle class, educated type people or ones with a strong opinion one way or another.

RE: NI - of course, any excuse to throw bricks and petrol bombs. There’s a generation that haven’t been able to do that missing out, and powers above getting into late stages in their lives who enjoy all this. I saw the link I think kef posted where James O’Brian talked about NI being a consideration for his remain vote and it was for me too. Brexit and borders was like the spark NI needed to ignite a load of petrol.

Ultimately Britain wants to be a power on the world stage in its own right. A Britain that is just England with some hills and sheepshaggers to the west to me is a much smaller force in terms of its perceptive size, scale and importance. At least we will own the Falklands...
 
danvilla2 said:
Britain that is just England with some hills and sheepshaggers to the west to me is a much smaller force in terms of its perceptive size, scale and importance. At least we will own the Falklands..
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In truth dan I think Britian is much smaller than that.
To all intent and purpose Britian is London. Its the be all and end all as far as any government is concerned.
Oh yes they pay lip service to the Northern Power House, and moving government departments up to Brum, but the real seat of power is London.
It produces 1/3 of the UKs GDP on its own, and the important offices of state are all there, plus The City.
In the grand scheme of things the rest of us dont exist, we just get the scraps off the table.
 
wittonite said:
In truth dan I think Britian is much smaller than that.
To all intent and purpose Britian is London. Its the be all and end all as far as any government is concerned.
Oh yes they pay lip service to the Northern Power House, and moving government departments up to Brum, but the real seat of power is London.
It produces 1/3 of the UKs GDP on its own, and the important offices of state are all there, plus The City.
In the grand scheme of things the rest of us dont exist, we just get the scraps off the table.
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It really irks me when Boris comes out with “northern powerhouse” and “midland engine” every couple of years.

The reality is that economics will largely drive industry up north, the cost of office space in the south east has meant that media has moved away from London, as has back office banking. The south east needs to heavily subsidise renewable energy for example around the old port towns to create new industry.
 
The troubles have been bubbling a long time. Whilst we were in the E U then both sides were happy. There was no border between North and South. The DUP were happy as they stayed part of the U K.

It rubbed along until Cameron and Johnson came along FB_IMG_1618055475920.jpg
 
One of the journalists from The Economist reckons that many Unionists voted for Brexit hoping for a harder border with the Republic. That got flipped on them when the border was put in the Irish Sea.

Turkeys voting for Christmas in the expectation that everyone else will be on the dinner table except them?
 
BodyButter said:
One of the journalists from The Economist reckons that many Unionists voted for Brexit hoping for a harder border with the Republic. That got flipped on them when the border was put in the Irish Sea.

Turkeys voting for Christmas in the expectation that everyone else will be on the dinner table except them?
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I can see that factoring in to some level.
 
I was listening to Prof Mark Blyth's podcast earlier about lots of different issues. He touched on Northern Ireland, pointing out that NI lives off transfers from London and thar economically, it would be much better off being part of the Republic. However, the Unionists don't want that because they identify ethnically with Britain.

The Unionists are now in the exact same position that the Republicans were in in the 1980s, wanting to be part of a state which is against their economic self interest.

The irony is that it's always the most deprived areas which really need that economic shot in the arm, that protest the most fervently for/against these things.
 
BodyButter said:
I was listening to Prof Mark Blyth's podcast earlier about lots of different issues. He touched on Northern Ireland, pointing out that NI lives off transfers from London and thar economically, it would be much better off being part of the Republic. However, the Unionists don't want that because they identify ethnically with Britain.

The Unionists are now in the exact same position that the Republicans were in in the 1980s, wanting to be part of a state which is against their economic self interest.

The irony is that it's always the most deprived areas which really need that economic shot in the arm, that protest the most fervently for/against these things.
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Would the republic effectively give Northern Ireland £4-5bn per year to just keep going?

Dublin is a wealthy city but that’s a lot of money for 4.9m people to subsidise. Surely you couldn’t stop that money over night, the place would turn into a war zone. I know the Irish are proud and protective people, but would a resident in the south really want to financially support that?

Maybe one of our Irish friends can answer that.
 
danvilla2 said:
Would the republic effectively give Northern Ireland £4-5bn per year to just keep going?

Dublin is a wealthy city but that’s a lot of money for 4.9m people to subsidise. Surely you couldn’t stop that money over night, the place would turn into a war zone. I know the Irish are proud and protective people, but would a resident in the south really want to financially support that?

Maybe one of our Irish friends can answer that.
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I've only seen one economist talk about it and he thinks it can be done easily enough. Whether people in the Republic want to financially support the North and particularly the Unionist population who despise them is another question.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/7d5244a0-f22d-11e8-ae55-df4bf40f9d0d
 
BodyButter said:
I've only seen one economist talk about it and he thinks it can be done easily enough. Whether people in the Republic want to financially support the North and particularly the Unionist population who despise them is another question.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/7d5244a0-f22d-11e8-ae55-df4bf40f9d0d
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Surely the frictionless trade with the republic already means there are in fact no upsides from that benefit. If there were tariffs between the two, you could see an economic upside.

It’s more whether the Brexit deal and challenges over time become a barrier to trade with England, Scotland and Wales that cost the economy over there.

Unfortunately I can only see a situation where NI gets poorer, where potentially leaving simply to reduce the rot is the decision.

Perhaps I’m wrong as it’s harder to see opportunity than it is to see risk with things like this. If you like Brexit paperwork and administration, perhaps there’s a lot of work for you in NI right now.
 
danvilla2 said:
Surely the frictionless trade with the republic already means there are in fact no upsides from that benefit. If there were tariffs between the two, you could see an economic upside.

It’s more whether the Brexit deal and challenges over time become a barrier to trade with England, Scotland and Wales that cost the economy over there.

Unfortunately I can only see a situation where NI gets poorer, where potentially leaving simply to reduce the rot is the decision.

Perhaps I’m wrong as it’s harder to see opportunity than it is to see risk with things like this. If you like Brexit paperwork and administration, perhaps there’s a lot of work for you in NI right now.
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I've seen the argument that Ireland would benefit from having a decent sized second city.

Prof Mark Blyth is originally from Scotland but has lived in the US for the past 30 years. He was always against Scottish independence until recently when he discovered that the British economy is entirely focused on rentier capitalism. It's where big public service contracts are given to companies to provide services. They employ people on minimum wage to do the donkey work and pocket the profits. There is no incentive for investment or development and no growth.

A big part of the Brexit vote was for the same reason, that lack of investment. The peripheries of the UK are suffering the most from this but all areas outside the M25 are feeling it.
 
I've just watched a video by The Economist on Scottish independence. They have support for independence at around 60% now. It was never above 50% until the Brexit vote.

Also, they pointed out if an independent Scotland was in the EU, there would have to a hard border with England. I think that has to be a deal breaker for any moderate independence supporter.
 
BodyButter said:
I've just watched a video by The Economist on Scottish independence. They have support for independence at around 60% now. It was never above 50% until the Brexit vote.

Also, they pointed out if an independent Scotland was in the EU, there would have to a hard border with England. I think that has to be a deal breaker for any moderate independence supporter.
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I might be wrong, but aren’t the opinion polls always a little in favour of independence, but when push comes to shove with the real vote, the support for Leave is actually just below the 50%? Though 60% is high, I thought from memory the polls were around mid-50’s.
 
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