Europe In Out Shake it all about | Page 328 | Vital Football

Europe In Out Shake it all about

BodyButter said:
I'm watching a fascinating video of Yuval Harari talking about Sapiens.

One striking thing he says is that the difference between humans and animals is that we can create fiction and have our society buy into that fiction. Things like money, companies, borders are all human creations. Religion and nationhood are two of the most powerful fictions.

After WW2, Europe realised that it needed a new narrative to stop the continent going to war every 20 years. The idea of being European and the EU was born out of that. Previously, a Frenchman would have told you that the polar opposite of French was German. Now they were both European.

Britain never fully bought into that idea. Britain still (barely) had its empire and the fiction of the greatest generation was developed to help the nation cope with the tragedy of losing the greatest empire the world had ever seen.

The one thing that the EU lacks is a coherent vision for the future. It's primarily concerned with keeping Europe in the running with China and the US rather than working towards something bigger. Perhaps the EU is scares of those grandiose visions after the last fella who had a vision for Europe.
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Great Post BB: So true. That's got me thinking about another topic to start later when it isn't such a silly time. Watch this space
 
BodyButter said:
I'm watching a fascinating video of Yuval Harari talking about Sapiens.

One striking thing he says is that the difference between humans and animals is that we can create fiction and have our society buy into that fiction. Things like money, companies, borders are all human creations. Religion and nationhood are two of the most powerful fictions.

After WW2, Europe realised that it needed a new narrative to stop the continent going to war every 20 years. The idea of being European and the EU was born out of that. Previously, a Frenchman would have told you that the polar opposite of French was German. Now they were both European.

Britain never fully bought into that idea. Britain still (barely) had its empire and the fiction of the greatest generation was developed to help the nation cope with the tragedy of losing the greatest empire the world had ever seen.

The one thing that the EU lacks is a coherent vision for the future. It's primarily concerned with keeping Europe in the running with China and the US rather than working towards something bigger. Perhaps the EU is scares of those grandiose visions after the last fella who had a vision for Europe.
Click to expand...

I was working for a company with a couple of offices Europe at the the time, the one thing I found was that the Europeans were a lot more clued up about the EU than we were. Honestly, I knew very little about the EU as many Brits just heard and took the narratives from the Daily Mail and Express. In my opinion, Cameron’s biggest mistake was telling Brits every five minutes the EU was bad and we needed concessions, and then one day he’s telling us all we should stay in.

Anyway, if you were to ask an educated Italian why is the EU important, one of their first responses was to do with peace. Those stories have filtered down through the generations where the nazis came to town and the Italians don’t want that again. I have some polish on my in laws side, and when the nazis came to town they didn’t see half their family ever again - probably shot in the barn.

Us Brits are brought up to be told we won a couple of wars versus Germany - perhaps a few other allies involved helped us out not taking anything away from anyone who gave up so much for the cause - but I think we have a mentality today that we can defend ourselves a bit too much.

As for the final point, I agree one person with a grand vision for 450m people might not end well as you say. I don’t trust one single person enough to follow a vision, who knows where that leads - often those charismatic leaders can’t let go, many examples from Putin to Farage. There is a lot of diversity and very different views on people in Europe, the danger is too much single vision leads to tension and more problems on the continent.
 
danvilla2 said:
I was working for a company with a couple of offices Europe at the the time, the one thing I found was that the Europeans were a lot more clued up about the EU than we were. Honestly, I knew very little about the EU as many Brits just heard and took the narratives from the Daily Mail and Express. In my opinion, Cameron’s biggest mistake was telling Brits every five minutes the EU was bad and we needed concessions, and then one day he’s telling us all we should stay in.

Anyway, if you were to ask an educated Italian why is the EU important, one of their first responses was to do with peace. Those stories have filtered down through the generations where the nazis came to town and the Italians don’t want that again. I have some polish on my in laws side, and when the nazis came to town they didn’t see half their family ever again - probably shot in the barn.

Us Brits are brought up to be told we won a couple of wars versus Germany - perhaps a few other allies involved helped us out not taking anything away from anyone who gave up so much for the cause - but I think we have a mentality today that we can defend ourselves a bit too much.

As for the final point, I agree one person with a grand vision for 450m people might not end well as you say. I don’t trust one single person enough to follow a vision, who knows where that leads - often those charismatic leaders can’t let go, many examples from Putin to Farage. There is a lot of diversity and very different views on people in Europe, the danger is too much single vision leads to tension and more problems on the continent.
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I thought the whole video was fascinating. I've posted it above. The narrative that I've always been told is that humans fight wars over resources but it's not true and he proves it. We fight wars when the fiction that we create to bind our society together comes up against an alternative fiction. Commonly, those are ideas of religion or race but it could really be anything. Even the aborigines, native Americans or eskimos can't be left alone to do their own thing. They have to buy into our money and our stories.

Bitcoin will feel the heavy hand if it every becomes a real currency.
 
BodyButter said:
Previously, a Frenchman would have told you that the polar opposite of French was German. Now they were both European.
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Not really sure about that BB.
In an ideal world, with perfect people, maybe, but as Covid has shown in a time of crisis nations go back to being just that, independant countries.
If we in this country had not been taken into the EU on a lie in the first place maybe we would have been more enthusiastic about the whole project.
 
I've worked in Germany, well Munich and they are Bavarian, then German, very proud and very arrogant just like us Brits.
They don't see themselves as European except like we all do in a geographical sense. In fact when i was there they were worried that German was a dying language and the English was taking over
 
wittonite said:
Not really sure about that BB.
In an ideal world, with perfect people, maybe, but as Covid has shown in a time of crisis nations go back to being just that, independant countries.
If we in this country had not been taken into the EU on a lie in the first place maybe we would have been more enthusiastic about the whole project.
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Before the EU, France and Germany were enemies with a long history of wars every few years. Now, they coexist peacefully and see themselves as natural allies.

Nothing changed except for the fiction that was created around the EU; the idea that we Europeans are much more similar than different.

By sharing this communal fiction, Europe has existed peacefully for 70 years.

My point was that Britain never bought into/was never sold this fiction because it had a different fiction around the empire.
 
BodyButter said:
Before the EU, France and Germany were enemies with a long history of wars every few years. Now, they coexist peacefully and see themselves as natural allies.

Nothing changed except for the fiction that was created around the EU; the idea that we Europeans are much more similar than different.

By sharing this communal fiction, Europe has existed peacefully for 70 years.

My point was that Britain never bought into/was never sold this fiction because it had a different fiction around the empire.
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The communal fiction has come about because of communal prospertity, and yes that is to be lauded, because only a fool would want to live in a time of uncertainty and conflict.
That is the very reason that we as a country, and I as an individual voted to remain in the EEC back in 1975.
The concept was everthing that was good about the EU, free trade between nations, with all the countries of Europe able to move and sell their goods around tariff free with the minimum of fuss, and by and large it worked.
It could have carried on working if the British politicians of the day had been upfront with the British public back in the seventies, but they chose to conceal the fact that the EEC was designed to become the EU, and it left a simmering resentment amongst a generation that grew up in that time.
Who knows if leaving the EU will prove to be a good or bad decision, that is for historians to dissect at a later date.
I think the EUs big test will come if it cant retain the communal prosperity it currently enjoys, and that will be bought about by something like Covid, or problems with the Euro.
It is a massive task to keep so many diverse interests happy amongst the very different twenty seven member states, and if they can do it then good luck to them, but to go back to my original point, if you ask a Frenchman if he is French or European, I think in good times he will tell you he is European, but in times of strife and national self interest he will revert to being a Frenchman,
 
To me, the debate on leaving or remaining and the talk about rejoining just deviate from the more important things now. I want to see the big political parties start talking about working with the EU strategically, on everything from the economy, to security to sustainability. We can have different laws on movement - which is what Brits want - but how can we be progressive on the rest of it. The tit for tat bollocks I read in the press from both sides is political negotiation and will go on for a bit but we all need to move on from that at some point.

I’d like to see the Tories in particularly come out with a post brexit strategy. They’ve appeased the easily pleased with cutting immigration, they now need to appease those of us who have to put up with the downsides of Brexit to see what those bigger and more important upsides we can get to our wealth and prosperity...
 
danvilla2 said:
To me, the debate on leaving or remaining and the talk about rejoining just deviate from the more important things now. I want to see the big political parties start talking about working with the EU strategically, on everything from the economy, to security to sustainability. We can have different laws on movement - which is what Brits want - but how can we be progressive on the rest of it. The tit for tat bollocks I read in the press from both sides is political negotiation and will go on for a bit but we all need to move on from that at some point.

I’d like to see the Tories in particularly come out with a post brexit strategy. They’ve appeased the easily pleased with cutting immigration, they now need to appease those of us who have to put up with the downsides of Brexit to see what those bigger and more important upsides we can get to our wealth and prosperity...
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I agree and VOLT have said its not an overnight job. It will take years. However just has UKIP had Farage in the background having VOLT in the background is good for the pro Europe alliances who wants to work on ties that are closer before that push in years to come

In York that is already happening. We have a specialist group set up by Rachel Maskell (Labour) York is a remain place. It was near enough 60% remain vote here.

Nothing much will happen Dan unless it benefits Johnson and his crowd here. They don't have a clue. It's all a game to them
 
kefkat said:
Tears rolling down my face listening to JOB. Spot on as ever

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The voting and political system was/is rigged against NI, especially on a referendum where 1 vote counts, as least during a general election they can make a few seats up in a coalition every now and again. I have before said to my Brexit voting parents - who occasionally do the whole church thing - there will probably be deaths in NI related to Brexit.

The problem is, there are many more people in the rural middle England areas like my folks who are scared stiff of immigrants who don’t give two shit about NI.

I still find it hard to understand why we care so much about tiny islands such as the Falklands but seem quite happy to stir the shit on NI. And I find it hard to understand why many pro-Brexit and proud Brits are quite happy to see NI and Scotland leave. It just doesn’t make sense in my head. I think people think if we let go of these places which we subsidise, they’ll start earning the salary of a doctor overnight from doing fuck all - which seems a very British thing to expect more from doing less.
 
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Billy Hutchinson of the Progressive Unionist Party reckons it's all about jobs and educational opportunities. Unemployment is high in NI and Sinn Fein and the DUP are only interested in filling their own pockets.

These riots are like a rorschach test. Everyone who talks about them has a different opinion on what they are about.
 
danvilla2 said:
I think people think if we let go of these places which we subsidise, they’ll start earning the salary of a doctor overnight from doing fuck all - which seems a very British thing to expect more from doing less.
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I dont think its that at all dan. In the case of the Scots I think people in England are just sick to the back teeth of hearing the Scots Nats banging on about the aweful English at every opportunity.
Add in to the mix the free prescriptions, dentist, and university thing plus the huge deficit the Scots run at Englands expense, and it all wears a bit thin at times.
That fuckin idiot Ian Blackford doesnt help matters talking shite in Parliament every chance he gets, and it all adds to the drip drip effect that Scotland will never be happy, the genie is out of the bottle and they will go, its just a matter of time.
As for NI. I really dont know the answer over there, it has been a running sore for years, and its all to easy to blame Brexit, but the truth is it never really went away, and I suspect its criminality at the back of this latest outbreak, with the young and gulliable being manipulated once again.
 
It looks like it's all kicking off properly in Norn Iron. The unionists have copped on to being sold up the river by Bojo and they aren't happy. Apparently, there is real anger among unionists with the DUP.

There are calls for the protests to be halted for Greek Phil's funeral but I can't see that working.

Eamonn McCann reckons that this isn't anything new and that it has always been bubbling away and now it has spilled over.

I know the Brexiteers will say that they don't care, etc but this situation is bad and it looks like it's going to get worse.
 
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