Europe In Out Shake it all about | Page 3 | Vital Football

Europe In Out Shake it all about

Villan Of The North

Vital Football Legend
#41
Wurzel - 22/2/2016 14:05

Norway is a red herring, the UK is a much bigger economy and has much more clout when it comes to negotiations on trade with the EU.
That was really my point, GT used it as an example of a non-EU European country, I was just pointing out why it's not a good example, it's very atypical.

 

BringbakMON

Vital 1st Team Regular
#42
Villan Of The North - 22/2/2016 12:42

Yes and no Clive, as usual, it's not quite that simple.

Regarding the UK's sovereign security, ie that as a nation state that might come under attack from another nation state - If an EU member state is attacked by another nation all other EU member states are obliged to come to their aid (should be interesting is Putin decides he wants the Baltic states back under his control)
The solidarity clause for the EU does have a few interpretations though as is the norm.
As the EU isn't a military organisation then it's argued by some that aid is solely humanitarian type stuff.
Even accepting that military support is allowed then that support should NOT prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States. (So traditionally neutral contries can continue to do nowt).
Also the solidarity clause shall not affect NATO commitments anyway.

So I guess we'd be less 'safe' from the lack possible 'aid' of some sort from those EU countries not in NATO
(Sweden, Austria, Cyprus, Finland, Ireland and Malta)

I think we'd cope tbh.
 

BBJ

Father Of The Forum
#43
Aha!
It looks as though I shall get to vote as I registered during our recent stay in Lancashire.
I'm probably going to vote "yes". For a start, I do not wish to be associated with the likes of Ian Duncan-Smith and Boris, not to mention that oxymoron of a political party, the Democratic Unionists.
However, I really wonder if it'll make a huge difference? The UK (unlike, for example, Norway) is a huge economy in European terms and I have little doubt that if there is a "no" vote (which is very possible) something will be worked out that'll enable trading to continue.
 
#44
Villan Of The North - 22/2/2016 12:42

Regarding people being free to come to the UK after being in France for 3 months, that's not how EU freedom of movement rules work, in order to get the freedom of movement you need to be a citizen of a member state, not a resident. Refugees and asylum seekers don't get citizenship as a default status, they need to fulfil the usual citizenship requirements which vary from country to country but usually involve a minimum period of residency and often a level of language proficiency.
Exactly. Maybe you should tell IDS while he's busy going round spouting off nonsense and scare stories that we are currently vulnerable because any old immigrant/refugee can get citizenship in an EU country and fast-track their way into the UK.

It's scaremongering and lies like that which will appeal to the naturally conservative (small 'c') instincts of our right-leaning population and we'll end up voting out. Which will then trigger another Scottish referendum and the UK will break up as an added 'bonus'.

Ironically we'd be worse off because those no good immigrants and refugees would enter little old England via Scotland.
 

The Fear

A Wise Man (once sat next to him)
#45
BMW and Merc etc aren't going to want to all of a sudden stop trading are they BBJ?

But some of the smaller companies could well struggle because the government dont' give a stuff for the little guys and to set up all different trading deals could take years and exclude anything they don't deem important.

That's my worry, stepping into the unknown and similar to you, if people like Boris or Gove tell me to do something, my instinct is to want to do the opposite. Then you have that **** Farage.

If we vote to stay in the one major advantage will surely be he will lose his celebrity rent a quote and don't worry about lying status and crawl back under a stone?
 
#46
The Fear - 22/2/2016 14:17

If we vote to stay in the one major advantage will surely be he will lose his celebrity rent a quote and don't worry about lying status and crawl back under a stone?
You would sincerely hope so, but the fact he's still peddling his lies (after such a poor general election for UKIP overall) is quite baffling.

The unfortunate consequence of a vote to stay in would be George Osborne being the next PM. At least we'd still be able to flee the country and live in France :10:
 

BBJ

Father Of The Forum
#47
JuanPabloAngel - 22/2/2016 14:23

The unfortunate consequence of a vote to leave would be having Boris Johnson as the next PM. And we wouldn't be able to flee the country and live in France quite so easily :10:
Fixed. :14:
 
#48
BBJ - 22/2/2016 14:29

JuanPabloAngel - 22/2/2016 14:23

The unfortunate consequence of a vote to leave would be having Boris Johnson as the next PM. And we wouldn't be able to flee the country and live in France quite so easily :10:
Fixed. :14:
Ha ha that's what I meant - see how confusing this whole issue is?! :37:

Amended now. :12:
 

Villan Of The North

Vital Football Legend
#49
JuanPabloAngel - 22/2/2016 15:15

Villan Of The North - 22/2/2016 12:42

Regarding people being free to come to the UK after being in France for 3 months, that's not how EU freedom of movement rules work, in order to get the freedom of movement you need to be a citizen of a member state, not a resident. Refugees and asylum seekers don't get citizenship as a default status, they need to fulfil the usual citizenship requirements which vary from country to country but usually involve a minimum period of residency and often a level of language proficiency.
Exactly. Maybe you should tell IDS while he's busy going round spouting off nonsense and scare stories that we are currently vulnerable because any old immigrant/refugee can get citizenship in an EU country and fast-track their way into the UK.

It's scaremongering and lies like that which will appeal to the naturally conservative (small 'c') instincts of our right-leaning population and we'll end up voting out. Which will then trigger another Scottish referendum and the UK will break up as an added 'bonus'.

Ironically we'd be worse off because those no good immigrants and refugees would enter little old England via Scotland.
Take a leaf out of Emperor Hadrian's book? lol

 

Merlin128777

Vital Squad Member
#51
Out a few reasons immigration not because of race colour or creed just because the infrastructure cant cope with an extra 350 million folks a year bad enough getting docs appointments now hospitals and schools are creaking under the strain and the morons who have run governments over the last couple of decades did not bother to build enough to cope. Think we need to control our own borders and laws. Other reasons is fed up of hearing the SNP threaten another referendum every time there is something they do not like. As for the scare stories on both sides it really is daft. I cant imagine for a moment that Germany is going to turn around to its third biggest customer and say bugger off then neither do I think there will be some utopia if we come out. The truth is we are trying to opt out of ever closer union opting out of the euro its like being a part time member anyway. Only person to come out of this with any credit so far in my humble is Angela Merkel she seems to be doing her best to keep the show on the road but I think the wheels will fall off sooner or later.
 
#52
Things are going to get pretty messy by 23rd June...

Cameron already trying to ridicule Johnson (not hard) and I'm sure BoJo will return the favour....

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/22/david-cameron-ridicules-boris-johnsons-second-referendum-idea
 

kefkat

Vital Football Legend
#54
At least we will be out of the country for the few weeks of it before and after! Proxy postal vote for us. We will find out on holiday if we are in/out and we will need our passport stamping to go in and out of Europe in the future. I bloody hope not as I am with the in crowd. Even Mr KK is with no big debate either between us.
 

BBJ

Father Of The Forum
#55
The Fear - 22/2/2016 12:47

One figure I heard the other day was something around 2.3m Europeans in the UK due to free movement and 2.2m of our lot over there.
I'd say we were all European although I'm aware, having lived in England for a third of my adult life, many English people don't agree with the sentiment.
I wonder does the 2.2 million include the Irish?
 

SKEGGY

Bringer Of The Seasons
#56
No one is thinking this through at all! If we vote to leave Europe will we still be able to take part in The Champions League when we qualify next season?
 

Melon Donkey

Vital Football Legend
#57
SKEGGY - 22/2/2016 20:24

No one is thinking this through at all! If we vote to leave Europe will we still be able to take part in The Champions League when we qualify next season?
I was thinking this very thing earlier. If it means doing over the sky four or five clubs out of champs league places, hell yeah, lets get out of here!.
 

mike_field

Vital Football Legend
#58
Wurzel - 21/2/2016 00:35

We are what, the sixth biggest economy on the planet? We would gain freedom from a political experiment that is failing. The world is shrinking, and cold war ideas of super states are already out moded . We ain't, and have never been European. We were shunned as a backwater by Europe until the 16th century and as soon as we got our shit together from the 17th century the rest of Europe has been jealous. You only have to look around the miserable attempts at Empire building by the French, Germans, Belgium and Dutch. Sod em , let them play, and we can get on with what we're good at trade, without interference.


NB. I do have my tongue slightly in my cheek here, but still the fact remains better out than in.
Lol at the edit, I logged off after reading it and thought 'nah maybe tomorrow' :7:
 

mike_field

Vital Football Legend
#59
HeathfieldRoad1874 - 21/2/2016 13:01

Anyone claiming to know which is best is just guessing. The truth is, nobody actually knows.

In many ways, I would like to see an Out vote, just to see what happens. To see whether these people that are certain we will be better off are proven correct.
The problem is with real undisrupted facts as they are the very same could be said for an In vote in terms of things getting a lot worse/and never improving etc.
 

kefkat

Vital Football Legend
#60
This article was posted on FB in it's entirety with a link to the original site, though not article. If you read it, it says at the beginning that permission is given in full for it to be printed. I am including. It's on my FB timeline JF if you want to see it in it's original entirety, or I can pm you with it on there. I am saying this because permission is given to re-share.

Here are the links on the post: http://www.theprostitutestate.co.uk/

The Prostitute State - How Britain's Democracy Has Been Bought (put this in FB search box)



Donnachadh McCarthy (put his name in FB search and you can see the whole post there)

I wasn't sure how to post all this. I wanted everyone to see it so this is how I have done it. You want anything changing Jf let me know, please)

......................................................................................................
Donnachadh McCarthy
19 hrs · London ·
“What did the EU ever do for us?

In the week when the UK's five extremist right-wing media billionaires won their battle to waste our time, money and political capital on a EU referendum, I thought it a good time to post the great letter by Simon Sweeney in the Guardian, which he kindly allowed me to reproduce in my book, "The Prostitute State - How Britain's Democracy has Been Bought":

"What did the EU ever do for us?
Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade;
structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;
clean beaches and rivers;
cleaner air;
lead free petrol;
restrictions on landfill dumping;
a recycling culture;
cheaper mobile charges;
cheaper air travel;
improved consumer protection and food labelling;
a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;
better product safety;
single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;
break up of monopolies;
Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;
no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;
price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;
freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;
funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;
access to European health services;
labour protection and enhanced social welfare;
smoke-free workplaces;
equal pay legislation;
holiday entitlement;
the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;
strongest wildlife protection in the world;
improved animal welfare in food production;
EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;
EU representation in international forums;
bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;
EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;
European arrest warrant;
cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence;
European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;
support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;
investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.
All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.
It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.
Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multi-polar global future.

Simon Sweeney,

Lecturer in international political economy, University of York"

Please share - the anti-EU campaign will have the full force of Murdoch's and the other 4 extremist right-wing media billionaires papers whose agenda is to destroy all our human rights.

As I wrote in The Prostitute State, over 80% of UK papers are owned by five extremist right wing media billionaires: Rupert Murdoch, (Sun/Times), Barclay Brothers (Telegraph), Richard Desmond (Express) and Lord Rothermere (Daily Mail).

Murdoch is Australian living in New York, Rothermere lives in France, the Barclay Brothers in the tax havens of Monaco and Guernsey. All of them use tax haven entities to avoid UK taxes.

So key question is in light of the above list, why have these billionaires for decades tried to destroy the EU's democratic institutions?

Together we can take him/them on and beat him/them.

peace love respect
Donnachadh x
www.theprostitutestate.co.uk
The-Prostitute-State-How-Britain…/…