Europe In Out Shake it all about
- Thread starter kefkat
- Start date
CDX_EIRE
Vital Football Legend
Interesting for Ireland if the UK does opt out.
Not sure thats 100% accurate, we've a common area of travel but you still need ID and all the rest. At least I did the last time I traveled to the UK.
If it becomes a massive worry it'll be addressed and its rather simple you get Irish passport holders to go through one side on our merry way and everyone else gets in line. No UK Government will retract the agreement with Ireland in some regards I think it is critical to maintain the peace in the North as well.
You're never going to stop people getting into the country, The EU makes things easier but a lot of the people who travel into the country that most people seem to be worried about are not EU citizens.
As someone who has moved abroad for work twice already I see these issues much differently. In addition I worked on site with a lot of Eastern Europeans when I did my internship in Dublin. People in Ireland are just as bad with this immigration stuff. I think it even worse attitude we have in Ireland considering we have the highest percentage of people under 30 living outside the country.
Not sure thats 100% accurate, we've a common area of travel but you still need ID and all the rest. At least I did the last time I traveled to the UK.
If it becomes a massive worry it'll be addressed and its rather simple you get Irish passport holders to go through one side on our merry way and everyone else gets in line. No UK Government will retract the agreement with Ireland in some regards I think it is critical to maintain the peace in the North as well.
You're never going to stop people getting into the country, The EU makes things easier but a lot of the people who travel into the country that most people seem to be worried about are not EU citizens.
As someone who has moved abroad for work twice already I see these issues much differently. In addition I worked on site with a lot of Eastern Europeans when I did my internship in Dublin. People in Ireland are just as bad with this immigration stuff. I think it even worse attitude we have in Ireland considering we have the highest percentage of people under 30 living outside the country.
Wurzel
Vital Football Legend
On borders, I suppose the simple answer is that if we were out of the EU we could decide exactly who can or can't live in the UK, including Europeans. We could for instance have an Australian style points system. We could have EU migration as part of a trade deal. The point is UK voters would vote for their parliament to implement their policies. Fundamentally the EU is an undemocratic institution where the will of the people is ignored by the chosen few who dictate what happens in our country from foreign lands, and that to me is wrong.
V
Villan Of The North
Guest
And this is one of my major reasons for tending towards wanting to be out, although I'm not completely decided.
JuanPabloAngel
Alert Team
I am of the opinion that the UK parliament is an undemocratic institution where the will of the people is ignored by the chosen few.
G
Guest
Guest
The free movement within the EU has it's advantages and disadvantages - personally I think the likes of Portugal & Spain have been ruined by all the British, Dutch and German ex-pats. I know when I look to visit either country, I look carefully to find and visit areas that still have massive Portuguese or Spanish culture. I'm not into British/Irish/Dutch/German bars, loud music, all day breakfasts, burger and chips etc when I go on holiday and it is shame that large parts of beautiful continental coastline is now bursting with such things.
Its the same when you visit Paris or Munich - Paris is full of North Africans and Asians. Its not racism, I just think it is shame to see a slow demise of French culture, a slow demise in German culture. I guess you could say the same in Britain as well, the culture slowly dies as it makes way for new. I think it also gets very sad when it gets to a stage whereby the said country feels it is wrong to wave and display its own flag, through fear of upsetting others. Norway, USA, Australia all do pretty well as independent countries and the people within are usually very proud to wave the flag and be associated. I think an independent UK will flourish, a lot like Australia. Its an Island with a lot going for it, with I might add an amazing coastline bursting with fish(which is controlled atm through EU).
Its the same when you visit Paris or Munich - Paris is full of North Africans and Asians. Its not racism, I just think it is shame to see a slow demise of French culture, a slow demise in German culture. I guess you could say the same in Britain as well, the culture slowly dies as it makes way for new. I think it also gets very sad when it gets to a stage whereby the said country feels it is wrong to wave and display its own flag, through fear of upsetting others. Norway, USA, Australia all do pretty well as independent countries and the people within are usually very proud to wave the flag and be associated. I think an independent UK will flourish, a lot like Australia. Its an Island with a lot going for it, with I might add an amazing coastline bursting with fish(which is controlled atm through EU).
V
Villan Of The North
Guest
Is it the demise of culture though or the evolving of culture?
lewis1980
Vital Squad Member
Yes OK I completely agree, my partner is from cork and I've travelled on a driving license although yes, passports are preferred. My point though was that the fantasy that we actually have some sort of boarder that we can shut is nonsense because we'll still have a boarder open to European immigration through Ireland and even if this wasn't the case, you will still be able to enter the country on holiday, what's stopping people staying.
It wasn't a well thought out point granted but neither is the absurd imagery presented of a man opening and shutting a checkpoint door allowing people in or not which seems to be the sort of rhetoric banded around.
With regard to the agreement between Ireland and the UK, no, it will never be removed. I hadn't thought about the North but personally, I think it's important for relationships with the Republic which would have been my main concern before you'd mentioned it. For many reasons I wouldn't want it removed. And my partner gets a little twitchy when I don't consider the Irish republic the same as France for instance, but I don't. Different relationship with different issues and history.
And again, agree about European immigration which is what led me to write in the first place. I don't remember in the last decade someone saying to me 'we let too many Spaniards into this country'. Sometimes I wish people would say it like it is. I suspect a lot of people are more bothered about immigration from countries that we can actually do something about, if so inclined, but they use European immigration as a vehicle to force the whole debate, wrapping all immigration, in all its forms into a tidy little parcel to be debates as a single issue.it ignores the complexity of the situation and the different variables with the benefit of making it more acceptable a discussion.
As I said, my worry is that a lot of people think pulling out the EU will mean we have no immigration which just isn't true. The groundwork for this has been laid down over the last decade and ignorantly a lot of people (in my experience) have accepted this nonsense. It's as if people think all of a sudden they'll wake up back in 1950s Britain. And if we did, itd be the Irish taking the brunt again.
I'm hoping the British public are more astute that I give them credit for but doubt it. I think the current anti-immigration feeling that seems to have swept the nation will be the driving force of an out vote to the detriment all all the other issues pulling out of the EU has.
Sad times in my opinion.
V
Villan Of The North
Guest
Just to clarify Norway's situation. Norway is part of the EEA which, in practice, means that many of the EU rules and regulation are in place, the biggest difference is that there is no free trade or unfettered freedom of movement. This clearly has benefits and drawbacks and doesn't come free of charge, to be a member of the EEA Norway has to pay in a good few million. From the perspective of the average Joe it's a pain as everything is more expensive as Norway is not a large producer of any goods other than oil, so pretty much everything has to be imported and is taxed accordingly. There are two other major factors to consider regarding Norway and they are linked; oil production and low population numbers. Norway has large oil and natural gas reserves, particularly in terms of population numbers meaning that most of what is produced can be exported. This has created an economy that is artificially buoyed by oil exports, one that, if not diversified, will one day disappear up its own backside when either the oil runs dry or the value of it drops even lower.
So Norway is not really a good nation to use as an example of a country living outside the EU, firstly because, in many ways, it doesn't, it is very much a part of the EU family and secondly because its economy is far from typical of any other European economy.
I would suggest looking at countries like Austria, Switzerland and Iceland to find models that work outside the EU but still inside geographical Europe, the comparisons would be more meaningful.
So Norway is not really a good nation to use as an example of a country living outside the EU, firstly because, in many ways, it doesn't, it is very much a part of the EU family and secondly because its economy is far from typical of any other European economy.
I would suggest looking at countries like Austria, Switzerland and Iceland to find models that work outside the EU but still inside geographical Europe, the comparisons would be more meaningful.
G
Guest
Guest
It wouldn't surprise me if Ireland hold another(I say another because they voted to opt out before but it wasn't the preferred vote, so they did it again) ref as well "if" the UK opt out. They would generally follow the path that the UK takes.
V
Villan Of The North
Guest
I think the example of the Euro disproves that statement immediately GT
G
Guest
Guest
I watched the facts about who is really important safety wise and security wise for our country last night and to my surprise it was USA Canada Australia and New Zealand with Pakistan also more important and crucial to us than any EU country on the BBC, now this squashes my fears that leaving the EU makes us more vulnrable to attack or weaker on the world stage as we have trident also which the USA confirms keeps us as a nation at the table of the big boys and players in the world,
So us leaving the EU stregthens our own border policies and control without being told to accept people that have lived in France for 3 months even though they am from say Syria or Yemen then they straight away have the right to move to the UK no problems,,,,,,now this is very worrying and needs to be stopped as this was highlighted as a loop hole into our country for terrorists.
So then security wise we am safer leaving the EU and have our own control of immigration which is what most want thesedays which only leaves the business side of things to worry about an exit, from what i have seen not much will change massively and new opportunities will open for us without EU restrictions and contract rights to our business's over here trading in the world.
I would like us to leave the EU having had a good think about it and everybody round by me has signes in there cars houses windows saying VOTE OUT OF EU so it does seem popular in my area to vote to leave, i efo am voting to leave the EU.
So us leaving the EU stregthens our own border policies and control without being told to accept people that have lived in France for 3 months even though they am from say Syria or Yemen then they straight away have the right to move to the UK no problems,,,,,,now this is very worrying and needs to be stopped as this was highlighted as a loop hole into our country for terrorists.
So then security wise we am safer leaving the EU and have our own control of immigration which is what most want thesedays which only leaves the business side of things to worry about an exit, from what i have seen not much will change massively and new opportunities will open for us without EU restrictions and contract rights to our business's over here trading in the world.
I would like us to leave the EU having had a good think about it and everybody round by me has signes in there cars houses windows saying VOTE OUT OF EU so it does seem popular in my area to vote to leave, i efo am voting to leave the EU.
V
Villan Of The North
Guest
Yes and no Clive, as usual, it's not quite that simple.
Regarding the UK's sovereign security, ie that as a nation state that might come under attack from another nation state - If an EU member state is attacked by another nation all other EU member states are obliged to come to their aid (should be interesting is Putin decides he wants the Baltic states back under his control)
Regarding people being free to come to the UK after being in France for 3 months, that's not how EU freedom of movement rules work, in order to get the freedom of movement you need to be a citizen of a member state, not a resident. Refugees and asylum seekers don't get citizenship as a default status, they need to fulfil the usual citizenship requirements which vary from country to country but usually involve a minimum period of residency and often a level of language proficiency.
Illegal immigrants can only work in any country as part of the illegal or "dark" economy. This happens in two ways, either cash in hand employment in small businesses or people like you and me that choose to save money by having work done without requiring a receipt. If we want to stop illegal immigrancy it's up to us to keep things above board and report suspected instances of unregistered employees to HMRC.
Regarding the UK's sovereign security, ie that as a nation state that might come under attack from another nation state - If an EU member state is attacked by another nation all other EU member states are obliged to come to their aid (should be interesting is Putin decides he wants the Baltic states back under his control)
Regarding people being free to come to the UK after being in France for 3 months, that's not how EU freedom of movement rules work, in order to get the freedom of movement you need to be a citizen of a member state, not a resident. Refugees and asylum seekers don't get citizenship as a default status, they need to fulfil the usual citizenship requirements which vary from country to country but usually involve a minimum period of residency and often a level of language proficiency.
Illegal immigrants can only work in any country as part of the illegal or "dark" economy. This happens in two ways, either cash in hand employment in small businesses or people like you and me that choose to save money by having work done without requiring a receipt. If we want to stop illegal immigrancy it's up to us to keep things above board and report suspected instances of unregistered employees to HMRC.
SKEGGY
Bringer Of The Seasons
Just stole this from somewhere. But puts it quite clear.
The EU is a malevolent and destructive empire because 28 national political elites, including the British elite, chose to hand over sovereignty.
Given what Europe has gone through in the last hundred years that's not surprising , most of the EU is made up of ex fascist countries, ex communist countries and ex military dictatorships and that is partly why you still see ridiculous levels of support for the EU and the euro from most of continental Europe. Of course the other reason is most of them are on the take, paid for partly by British billions.
But Britain didn't have fascism, communism, military dictatorship so it's not surprising that despite an overwhelmingly pro EU political elite, establishment, big business, the malevolent lobbying and state apparatus network and pro EU propagandistic media there are just about enough intelligent British people left to vote to leave before the inevitable collapse.
When the EU collapses it's essential that a strong, prosperous, democratic and sovereign Britain is on the outside of the EU empire, not within its collapsing walls.
The EU is a malevolent and destructive empire because 28 national political elites, including the British elite, chose to hand over sovereignty.
Given what Europe has gone through in the last hundred years that's not surprising , most of the EU is made up of ex fascist countries, ex communist countries and ex military dictatorships and that is partly why you still see ridiculous levels of support for the EU and the euro from most of continental Europe. Of course the other reason is most of them are on the take, paid for partly by British billions.
But Britain didn't have fascism, communism, military dictatorship so it's not surprising that despite an overwhelmingly pro EU political elite, establishment, big business, the malevolent lobbying and state apparatus network and pro EU propagandistic media there are just about enough intelligent British people left to vote to leave before the inevitable collapse.
When the EU collapses it's essential that a strong, prosperous, democratic and sovereign Britain is on the outside of the EU empire, not within its collapsing walls.
