Europe In Out Shake it all about | Page 147 | Vital Football

Europe In Out Shake it all about

ironside said:
Once again Kefkat I agree with you on the racist elements that have fed on the immigration aspects of Brexit. However, this racism is not the exclusive preserve of the far right. The anti semitism that seems to be an aspect of extreme elements of the Labour Party is a counter balance. Blaming minorities for the ills of society is a common tactic of the political extremes. It reached its apogee in the Nazi demonisation of Jews, gypsies and other undesirables including those with low I Qs and mental and physical weaknesses and was mirrored in the Commmunist demonisation of kulaks, the Tarters and other 'counter revolutionaries'.
Now it appears that Brexit is the fault of the old who hanker for a bygone age and those of poor intellect not capable of rational thought.
I know people who don't fit into either of those categories but still voted for Brexit. They saw the same warnings from Carney, Osbourne, Cameron and and Obama as me and read the same pamphlet. They made a different choice from me.
The trouble with meetings and rally's is that they attract not only people with legitimate concerns but extremists willing to exploit them. I suspect there was a fair sprinkling of those at the meeting you attended.
The divisions this whole issue has created are going to fester for a long time.
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Among the most sensible things I have read about Brexit, Ironside. Thank you.

In or out of the EU extremism both right and left is on the rise, everywhere. Austerity breeds mistrust and anger. Your comparison with post WWI Germany is valid. Interesting and worrying piece here about Hungary, an EU member.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...iktor-orban-slave-law-during-state-tv-protest
 
In 1968, Enoch Powell, Conservative MP for Wolverhampton South West made his infamous "Rivers of Blood" speech. 50 years later, for many in Britain, elements of his belief still remain at the core of issues surrounding Brexit".

In the aftermath of the Rivers of Blood speech, several polls suggested that between 67% and 82% of the UK population agreed with Powell's opinions. Calling those who hold such beliefs racist and ignorant will not make them go away.

Here is an excerpt that might sound familiar. IMO, the whole speech whilst horrifyingly racist, is thought provoking and interesting when attempting to understand how we find ourselves on the brink of the unknown.

A link to the whole speech can be found below.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3643823/Enoch-Powells-Rivers-of-Blood-speech.html

"But while, to the immigrant, entry to this country was admission to privileges and opportunities eagerly sought, the impact upon the existing population was very different. For reasons which they could not comprehend, and in pursuance of a decision by default, on which they were never consulted, they found themselves made strangers in their own country.

They found their wives unable to obtain hospital beds in childbirth, their children unable to obtain school places, their homes and neighbourhoods changed beyond recognition, their plans and prospects for the future defeated; at work they found that employers hesitated to apply to the immigrant worker the standards of discipline and competence required of the native-born worker; they began to hear, as time went by, more and more voices which told them that they were now the unwanted. They now learn that a one-way privilege is to be established by act of parliament; a law which cannot, and is not intended to, operate to protect them or redress their grievances is to be enacted to give the stranger, the disgruntled and the agent-provocateur the power to pillory them for their private actions".
 
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BringbakMON said:
didn't all the project fear stuff prior to the first 'people's vote' say just that - out completely, eternal darkness, the dead rising from their graves etc.
most folk still voted out
so crack on
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Yes although project fear seems a little more like project reality as the months tick by.

And I'm someone who on text value sees a strong argument for the referendum meaning 'out - no deal'.

However, no deal wasn't argued. The deal argued by Leave was 'cake and eat it'. We'll lose the worst of the EU and cherry pick all the good bits.

If Leavers are so convinced on why 'they' voted leave and they believe all leavers have a consensus - (no mistakes, no misunderstandings, no lies and nobody has changed their mind) - why is there such a fear of firming it up and having a vote that categorically states 'Remain As Is', 'May's deal', 'No Deal' or 'Canada +++'.

And simply doing what the original referendum in fact should've been asking.

The irony of the bellends like Rees-Mogg, Francois and Bridgend et al harping a second vote is undemocratic whilst ignoring the fact that a consensus vote would actually be democratic, and by the time it happens millions of people would actually have a first say (given Brexit was supposed to be so simple and could effectively be sorted in a fortnight) does leave me giggling.
 
Sammy Wilson has claimed that the Irish Government and the EU contrived the Irish border. Poor old Sammy obviously doesn't know his history. He'll be claiming that Leo Varadkar won the Battle of the Boyne next.
 
BodyButter said:
Sammy Wilson has claimed that the Irish Government and the EU contrived the Irish border. Poor old Sammy obviously doesn't know his history. He'll be claiming that Leo Varadkar won the Battle of the Boyne next.
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Brexit in a nutshell - a permeation of lies and deceit, with a complete and utter lack of knowledge and understanding of the facts and history from almost all of the politicians involved.

You couldn't make it up. It's like a really, really shit episode of The Thick of It.
 
And today's offering is Labour's vote of no confidence, not in the Gov, just May - so it's as important, useful and actionable as a soggy wet fart.

Fucking commie bellend.
 
mike_field said:
And today's offering is Labour's vote of no confidence, not in the Gov, just May - so it's as important, useful and actionable as a soggy wet fart.

Fucking commie bellend.
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Yep, utterly pointless. I saw an opinion poll over the weekend where the Tories had actually increased their lead!! Just unbelievable. I've been a Labour voter all my life, but the current state of affairs is a disgrace, totally shambolic.

In fact, Labour are making a worse job of opposition than the Tories are of governing the country and fucking up Brexit. That takes some doing!
 
The Tories are a complete shambles over this and Labour should be holding their feet to the fire. Unfortunately they've got a leader who is basically anti EU and has never believed in it. He's either trying to cover up his real beliefs for political advantage, in which case he's a hypocrite, or he's just too dim to grasp the details.
 
ironside said:
The Tories are a complete shambles over this and Labour should be holding their feet to the fire. Unfortunately they've got a leader who is basically anti EU and has never believed in it. He's either trying to cover up his real beliefs for political advantage, in which case he's a hypocrite, or he's just too dim to grasp the details.
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Defies belief that Labour aren't way ahead in the polls, just shows although the few worship Corbyn, the masses really don't fancy someone that left.

I don't trust him at all, I trust McDonnell even less.
 
ironside said:
Once again Kefkat I agree with you on the racist elements that have fed on the immigration aspects of Brexit. However, this racism is not the exclusive preserve of the far right. The anti semitism that seems to be an aspect of extreme elements of the Labour Party is a counter balance. Blaming minorities for the ills of society is a common tactic of the political extremes. It reached its apogee in the Nazi demonisation of Jews, gypsies and other undesirables including those with low I Qs and mental and physical weaknesses and was mirrored in the Commmunist demonisation of kulaks, the Tarters and other 'counter revolutionaries'.
Now it appears that Brexit is the fault of the old who hanker for a bygone age and those of poor intellect not capable of rational thought.
I know people who don't fit into either of those categories but still voted for Brexit. They saw the same warnings from Carney, Osbourne, Cameron and and Obama as me and read the same pamphlet. They made a different choice from me.
The trouble with meetings and rally's is that they attract not only people with legitimate concerns but extremists willing to exploit them. I suspect there was a fair sprinkling of those at the meeting you attended.
The divisions this whole issue has created are going to fester for a long time.
Click to expand...

I agree with you, that there is more than racism involved. There are people who would be genuinely shocked if I was to say to them, you know what you are saying is racist. I know there is just more than racism on the right too.

I know NOT all over 70's voted leave. I know NOT all people who voted leave of ANY age are of low I.Q. They just didn't get the total mess this would be.

For what I have seen, those who did vote leave, and are still spouting about it, go quiet when you mention the N.I border, the other factors should as employment in the areas we need, what can happen with a hard Brexit etc.

They also go quiet when I have spelt out the facts from the other side of the coin on a 2nd referendum. To be fair on those at the public meeting I went too, there was maybe one who was very vocal who was a remainer on demanding on why hasn't XYZ hasn't been done and that was about it.

It was very dignified for a public meeting, I know. I expected there to be problems but there wasn't. Probably because there is a 70% remain in York where we live.

As for whomever asked if I thought also remainers could have low I.Q.s. Yes ofcourse. However even with low I.Q they must have been prepared to listen to the remain argument or/and went along with how family was voted.

As I have said clearly I know NOT all that voted leave are elderly or thick. It has taken me a bit by surprise the very few people I know of who voted leave whom they were.

The E.U isn't perfect however I would rather be in it than out of it, especially at this time this shambolic parliament are showing exactly what they are and don't care either.

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The reason J.C has not pulled a full vote of no confidence is he won't until he is convinced he can win it.

He needs the full support of the DUP which until the vote on the Brexit deal has happened and voted down he won't win, so it's a waste of time.

He has to have the full unequivocal support of Liberal, SNP, Labour, Greens and DUP with a smattering of a few other independents to win it.

As for the vote of no confidence in T.M it's all about ramping up the pressure
 
I've been trying to understand Brexit since the vote without much success. Nobody has been able to explain to me why they supported it or what the benefits are.

Originally, it was said to have been a protest vote, which I could understand but the numbers remain remarkably high and are still similar to the vote even though the entire thing has been a fiasco. So it wasn't a protest vote.

The other day I was chatting with my sister and she was talking about the Brexit chat at her mother-in-law's birthday party. Her in-laws are old school Edinburgh British nationalists. They believe that the EU is being deliberately difficult and invented the border in Ireland. They are outraged that these Johnny foreigners are being allowed to dictate the terms of Brexit to Britain. They also expect the Republic of Ireland to realise its folly and to rejoin the union any day now.

That basically sums up Brexit supporters. They are British nationalists who believe in the supremacy of Britain over all other nations. They don't want to be part of any European group, regardless of the benefits because they don't see themselves as European and won't accept being on par with other nations because they believe they are superior.

There is no rational basis behind it. It's entirely ideological based on their belief in their own racial superiority.

I think they are in for a hard landing. :O
 
BodyButter said:
I've been trying to understand Brexit since the vote without much success. Nobody has been able to explain to me why they supported it or what the benefits are.
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The other day I saw a post on Facebook from a Brexiteer shared by someone from Coventry (that bit is important) quoting a Brexit-supporting Economist called Patrick Minford from Cardiff which found that the UK would be better off by if we implemented WTO tariffs and the one paragraph of the article quoted

The headline states two numbers 1) how the EU could be hit by £500bn and 2) how the UK would benefit by £640bn. The first comment is “let’s do It. That’s all the info I need!”

After a bit of common sense research, the same economist also says that a hard Brexit would effectively destroy a lot of our current manufacturing industry - automotive, probably parts of aerospace. Coventry is a city built on those two industries or what’s left of it.

I understand the point of the economist in what he’s saying about destroying old industry to then reinvent and move onto the next industry investing in new technology such as smart cars and moving the current diesel manufacturing to Slovakia or somewhere in Eastern Europe but I doubt that the people of Coventry who look back on the city in a few decades would appreciate losing all those jobs and probably blame the elites.

An article by any economist to explain the benefits of staying in the EU would probably take a whole page and that for me is the difference. The Brexiteers have mastered the one fact (true or not) to drive the thought process of their backers.

It’s quite rich the amount of debate we have over here on Trump and his supporters when we’re just the same.
 
BodyButter said:
I've been trying to understand Brexit since the vote without much success. Nobody has been able to explain to me why they supported it or what the benefits are.

Originally, it was said to have been a protest vote, which I could understand but the numbers remain remarkably high and are still similar to the vote even though the entire thing has been a fiasco. So it wasn't a protest vote.

The other day I was chatting with my sister and she was talking about the Brexit chat at her mother-in-law's birthday party. Her in-laws are old school Edinburgh British nationalists. They believe that the EU is being deliberately difficult and invented the border in Ireland. They are outraged that these Johnny foreigners are being allowed to dictate the terms of Brexit to Britain. They also expect the Republic of Ireland to realise its folly and to rejoin the union any day now.

That basically sums up Brexit supporters. They are British nationalists who believe in the supremacy of Britain over all other nations. They don't want to be part of any European group, regardless of the benefits because they don't see themselves as European and won't accept being on par with other nations because they believe they are superior.

There is no rational basis behind it. It's entirely ideological based on their belief in their own racial superiority.

I think they are in for a hard landing. :O
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I have always thought we are a bit to arrogant for my liking. Does it go back to the Empire days when we thought it was a good idea to impose our "values" on the rest of the world ?
 
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