Europe In Out Shake it all about | Page 145 | Vital Football

Europe In Out Shake it all about

BodyButter said:
That was the 1990s, before the Good Friday Agreement.

If the UK leaves without an agreement on regularity conformity, the hard border comes back. If the UK agrees to regularity conformity, it may as well stay in the EU.
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I meant for my comment. But 1990 is far back too.
 
The lack of leadership and clarity of thought from politicians of all political parties is beyond belief. To me, it is beginning to suggest that the likelihood of any of them securing the bright and glorious future outside the EU is slim.
Choices (within my limited understanding) it would seem are as follows;

Parliament accept May's plan = years and years of the same pathetic stalemate, stuck in the customs union (with no say on EU matters) whilst rival politicians, hell bent on pushing there own political ideologies, claim that they can secure the best deal and future for Britain. Each failing to secure agreement with the EU.

No deal Brexit = economic and governmental chaos, political meltdown with left and right wing extremism growing in support, with associated violence and intolerence of each others views. Instability for the foreseeable future.

Revoke Article 50, stay in the EU = let the country be slowly consumed into a federated European Super State, comprised of 30 + countries with hugely differing socioeconomic needs and cultural beliefs. All being governed by the increasingly powerful, unelected European Commission, whilst retaining the same increasingly toothless, ineffectual, stale, uninspiring political system in Britain.

Glad I'm nearly 60 and not in my children's position. Something has gone badly wrong hasn't it? :shake:
 
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That's the thing though Northampton, the country isn't being consumed - it never has. We have a say, we largely lead when we want, we have the veto and at all times it comes down to how WE implement EU directives.

The EU has been an easy blame for weak willed politicians in this country looking for excuses.

Break under May's deal or no deal and we will be consumed as we have no say and have to comply to trade - it's totally counterproductive.
 
Oh and yes, it needs plenty of reform but we can't reform it to be more favourable by being outside and having to do what we're told simply to trade. It's a misnomber.
 
We neither have the political will or ability to reform it from within or to succeed outside of it. That is the problem for me.

The ambitions of some within the EU for a federated state are not to the benefit of all nations. The nature of the EU and the economic balance of nations changed when the former Eastern block countries became members in 2004 and 2007.

Rightly or wrongly , IMO concern regarding the large numbers of immigrants from those countries and the resulting cultural change has fuelled the rise of right wing politics and consequently informed the Brexit vote.

Those feelings will be exacerbated should Brexit not occur. I'm afraid these are very volatile times.
 
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That's the problem 100%, successive UK Gov's have made more of a play of effectively punishing the UK on implementations rather than prioritising our own industries and arguing for consensus change.

ie farming/animal regulations - we go all in handing Europe the advantage because we want to 'lead' because it sounds good in a press release. Hamstring the UK to compete better, but then soft touch the stuff that would protect taxpayers because their 'friends' in the City wouldn't like it and they have to have their after dinner £££ speeches.

If we actually did it properly, given there are those that want reform, it wouldn't be quick but strides would be taken....but MP's would lose the excuse of blaming Europe then for their own failures.

I also don't see how we can succeed outside as we have to say 'yes sir' if we want to trade.

Undoubtedly there are those with the EU who would love a New World Order, but I don't believe they are the majority - much like the UK can burn but we must leave the EU Tory minority.

Again agree on immigration, but I'd say rather than EU dictat it's how the UK has coped, overloading certain areas, whilst leaving others largely untouched. It's fuelled it when a better balance, meaning more slow progress, would've given greater time for acceptance and local services to catch up in a managed way without being instantly overloaded.

It's a problem of our own making as those making the decisions haven't wanted their leafy suburbs affected - and even then the positives to the economy fly under the radar as all we hear about are those aids infected foreigners coming over here using the NHS.

The truly stupid thing is, when you look more into it seems most have more of a problem with British born Asians etc and the likes of Farage play on the fact they 'come from abroad' or we pick on the Poles or the Romanians (did the country arrive again?) because they can quickly hang on language and accent.

It still amazes me you can see so many on TV banging on about bloody Europe and how we need to control our borders when talking about non-European immigration and illegal immigrants.

The whole thing had been fed and is batshit - the problem on the counter is with such obvious biases here, the real concerns and problems do get hidden as you talk immigration it's too easy to shout racist etc.

So the issues that should've been addressed over a decade ago have gone unspoken and have festered into a life of their own with associated stereotypes.

And yes, the best possible outcome of no Brexit is not going to help things at all now as people will entrench more.

Whole thing is a clusterfuck and really could've been avoided.
 
mike_field said:
It still amazes me you can see so many on TV banging on about bloody Europe and how we need to control our borders when talking about non-European immigration and illegal immigrants.
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Lol, ignoring NI for a moment, we already have so much control over our border that it is in f**king Calais!! It's just beyond me how anyone thinks we aren't in complete control of our borders, our currency, our parliament and anything else. We don't have the Euro, we have a huge rebate and we have a veto over pretty much anything we don't like!

FFS, we don't even have to immediately give EU migrants benefit payments, which seems to be a major beef of the uninformed - people coming over here and fraudulently claiming benefits, or benefit 'tourists' by another description.

:arrghh::arrghh::arrghh:
 
The media, as ever, have a fuck lot to answer for. Again though, there are topics they could focus on that would be valid criticisms but it's not as seemingly sensational as the crap they guff out.
 
Interesting to hear the views of a German M.E.P. on Brexit.
His view was that Europe are as much to blame for the current impasse as our politicians. He said that Britain joined a football team but Europe has evolved into a hockey team. This evolution has taken place without consultation with the people of Europe, a large number of whom are very dissatisfied with the direction the E.U is going.
He says that the European project needs the sort of reform that can not only claim the support of the peoples of Europe but also gain the support of the British electorate in a new referendum. Interestingly he said that Britain leaving the E.U is the equivalent of 19 of the smaller European nations going.
Another German put the opposite view in a very determined way that we made our choice, the E.U has done as much as it can to help us and we'd best think again . There won't be another deal.
Interesting to hear views other than the big cheeses.
 
If that was the bloke I saw Ironside, the only bit I could fault in his perspective was when he spoke about Barnier etc not talking about how bad it would be for the EU if we left, as they won't openly talk about their own downfalls from it as it hands some negotiating power back.

Otherwise, he did present the case that there was a will to reform the EU - just that nobody yet has truly approached how to.
 
There is a huge debate to be had about immigration, multi culturalism and it's impact on any given country's ethnic, cultural and social make up. All politician's are terrified of it given the implications for allegations of racism.

Post WW2, beginning with the introduction of labour from the commonwealth, the social, cultural and ethnic mix of nationalities in Britain has changed (and continues to change) beyond recognition. A great many people did and still do not want the change and as a result have reacted negatively to the idea of continued, unmanaged immigration. Does this make them racist? Should unwanted change be forced upon nations? Successive Governments have done too little in terms of managing and educating both the existing population and migrants in terms of integration and what to expect. The EU policy on freedom of movement complicates this issue.

Is multiculturalism for the benefit of all? The fact that Labour controlled, working class communities voted for Brexit and one of the major redline topics was immigration suggests otherwise. Perhaps they feel threatened by the influx of labour willing to work longer hours, for less pay in poor conditions.

It's a problem that has been growing for a number of years and will not go away. Some people are scared or intimidated by change and the unfamiliar, some people just need an excuse to hate and someone to blame.
 
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I agree with you northamptonvillan when you say that some people are scared or intimidated by change. I think that these people feel that they have had no voice in the changes that have been imposed upon them. The issues that they feel impact on their lives and neighbourhoods have been imposed on them by people who are remote, whether these people are in Westminster or Brussels. For once they were given a vote that meant they could have a say in the future direction of their country without further impositions from what they regard as a remote, unaccountable foreign power. The leavers I speak to resent the loss of sovereignty that they feel has resulted from the way the EU,has developed without their agreement or permission. Most of these people are intelligent people who have thought about the course they took. They ask when were they consulted in any general election to agree to open borders or unrestricted immigration. They ask who elected the likes of Juncker and Barnier because they can't remember voting for them.The notion of shared sovereignty doesn't make sense to them. And they think that a Remainer dominated parliament is about to steal from them the only thing they really believed in when they cast their vote.
I think they thought too much about big philosophical ideas and not enough about how this was going to impact them and their families.
I believed it was in my, and my family's best interests to remain. Philosophy doesn't pay the bills, grow your savings, fund the NHS treatment you may require or guarantee the quality of your food or produce enough wealth to fund social services and pay your pensions.
Perhaps if people thought they had a stake in the future development of the EU they might look more favourably on it.
 
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Now that we've made ourselves the laughing stock of Europe and the world I'm remembering the morning after the referendum when the airwaves were full of smug looking public schoolboys telling me that getting a great deal from the EU would be the easiest thing in history and would take about 5 minutes. Two and a half years later and here we are crashing towards a no deal that will potentially wreck the country and it blatantly obvious that none of the people on the leave side had the foggiest idea of what they were actually going to do if we voted to leave.

I've said before on this thread that I work in a large warehouse where a lot of people voted leave. Pretty much none of them have changed their minds and most blame the EU for the difficulties of the negotiations as opposed to us not actually having a clue what we wanted from the start. Most now want a no deal exit and either don't know or care about any negative implications just that we'll be better off out.

Whilst I don't think the apocalyptic scenarios about a no deal will come to fruition I do believe that the country and especially the poorest will suffer from it whilst the likes of farage, Rees mogg, Boris and the other millionaire backers of the leave campaign will be left untouched. The sheer amount of lies and wasted money over this ridiculous situation has left me disgusted. We are fucked.
 
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