EU strategy to destroy the Chequers ‘agreement’... | Page 53 | Vital Football

EU strategy to destroy the Chequers ‘agreement’...

Wayne.Kerr said:
Dyson has effectively moved most of the manufacturing side of his business to Malaysia and Singapore. JCB has had overseas manufacturing facilities around the globe for decades; so, it's relatively easy for the likes of Bamford to big up Brexit. As for Wetherspoons, the only overseas activity is in the ROI - hardly a global business. You have effectively picked on three entrepreneurs whose businesses have marginal relevance to the EU and are not representative of so many, many enterprises across the UK.
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Now even the doom mongers are contradicting each other !

He's on your side, Wayne.
 
Play up Brompton said:
Can't believe we have 52 pages about Brexit on a Gills forum.
Unfortunately we are no longer the factory of the world and we will struggle to exist outside the EU.
We are governed by politicians who all have degrees in Philosophy, politics & economics and don't have a clue about industry. Contrast that with Germany where Merkel has a scientific background and has the ear of industry.
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I think you will find she runs a minority government like TM.

Also, we currently have the fifth largest Gross Domestic Product in the World. Quite a jump from there to struggling to exist. Or is that an expert opinion?

Furthermore, I would have thought studying for an economics degree would be one of the best if you want an understanding of business and industry. At least if you want it to be profitable.
 
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GillsBluenose said:
Also, we currently have the fifth largest Gross Domestic Product in the World. Quite a jump from there to struggling to exist. Or is that an expert opinion?
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GDP is not a good measure of well-being. If there's an earthquake, GDP rises because of the value of rebuilding work. If people get sick, GDP goes up as hospitals are built. Two countries can have identical GDPs but, in one, the average working day is 12 hours and, in the other, 8 hours. GDP doesn't differentiate. That's economics for you.
 
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It's 6th anyway - France now (again) above us re strength of Euro re £.

In any case the real size of the Indian economy is well above us - going by Current Purchasing Power.
 
GillsBluenose said:
The funny thing is that none of us is in possession of all the information so we just choose to refer to links that favour our own set opinion.

Yes, Tarian clearly uses Google but that is because it is the best source of quick information.

....does he search for any contrary views of other experts on any other website? Is he sure that the experts he has chosen do not have vested interests? Does that make him any different from Tarian or the rest of us?

On top of that, most of the remainers only want to highlight the doom stories about effects on the UK and are never willing to accept that the EU will have the same or more problems if a sensible deal can not be worked out. If Tarian is deluded he is not the only one.
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Ooops ! I missed the revival of this thread.
And thanks to all of you who read my posts and respond with civility or good humour.

My aim is to provide evidence not merely assert. (see below #)
And I try to avoid extremes - but it seems that any criticism of the EU (i.e. pointing out facts) attracts personal criticism from some....:arrghh:

For example, few Leavers will predict that Brexit will solve all the UK's economic problems - whereas hard-line Remainers seem absolutely certain that whatever might go wrong will - and in spades.
Surely it's about probabilities ......

Mainy Remainers rely on the old debting trick "appeal to authority" - hence peristant citing of "experts".
For Brexit this usually means economists - who mostly have a dismal record of economic predictions.
Remember the 300+ economists who predicted disaster from not joining the Euro ? (supported by the CBI).

# Contrary to Waldo's belief, I do not merely search Google.
:geek:
Knowledge has its foundations in:
- reading legislation (e.g. Single European Act 1986 or ECA 1972)
- reading the Maastricht Treaty
- reading EU directives directly
- annual Bruges Group conference addressed by serious academics who consider it their duty to support claims with evidence - and provide "health warnings" when uncertain
- Politicians, bureaucrats and business-people describing actual past experience rather than theory or guesswork.

- :computer: When using Google, unless the same fact appears at least 3 times, in 3 unrelated places (i.e. not cut and paste) I would treat the info with caution.

- Also, being a bit mathsy, I often spot suspect statistics and would try to avoid repeating without suitable qualification.

So.... please leave out the personal attacks (you know who you are ...)
By all means rip into arguments - with supporting counter facts.:please:
 
Wayne.Kerr said:
GDP is not a good measure of well-being. If there's an earthquake, GDP rises because of the value of rebuilding work. If people get sick, GDP goes up as hospitals are built. Two countries can have identical GDPs but, in one, the average working day is 12 hours and, in the other, 8 hours. GDP doesn't differentiate. That's economics for you.
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Well said WK.

Why is why claims that:
- the UK "needs" migration to boost "growth" (GDP)
- migration is a "net benefit" to a country
... are suspect.

If migration increases by 0.5% per year - then GDP should grow by 0.5% per year.
But the average individual is no better off as that GDP is spread more thinly.
So for that and WK's other reasons, GDP is a poor policy target.

Has quality of life improved across the board ?
Are more people able to live in larger houses with decent gardens
 
To be fair to experts, they usually hedge far more than it appears from the way they are used by journalists. When they do break cover and sign petitions and letters they often make fools of themselves -and also abuse their status as experts, presenting preferences as facts.

Is there not an expert consensus that the Euro in its present form cannot work properly and is an invitation to continual crises? It needs a guiding political authority and a sense of all in this together to make possible redistribution payments from winners to losers.
 
Tarian, if your friend had a diagnosis of cancer, would you rush to your Internet research and come up up with an alternative diagnosis ? Of course not. And that's the problem I have with your inputs. I listen to the vast majority of those people with long experience of these issues and form my opinion based on these. There are many times in life that you, me, everybody has to rely on an expert opinion, whether that's a doctor, a building surveyor, a plumber, an electrician whatever. The vast majority of expert opinion finds nothing but downsides to Brexit. If you stop listening to those with experience and expertise and replace it with whatever you can find on the Internet, then I'm sorry but you deserve much of the abuse that you complain of.
 
The Prime Minister has again ruled out ( quite rightly ) a second referendum / people's vote . Politics should be interesting this autumn , with the party conferences no doubt demanding changes
 
Tarian, I might agree with you but, I cannot handle a mega opinion of you volume. Least of all when I have had such a rake of beautiful ales!
 
valenciagill said:
The Prime Minister has again ruled out ( quite rightly ) a second referendum / people's vote . Politics should be interesting this autumn , with the party conferences no doubt demanding changes
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How could giving the people a say on any Brexit deal possibly be "undemocratic" ?? ?? Aren't the Britush people entitled to clarify whether or not they want a soft Brexit or a Boris-Mogg cliff edge? My preference would be for representative democracy to sort it out through a cross party coalition but I don't see that happening.

But it's complete nonsense to say (even though it wouldn't be an option) that it's undemocratic to allow the people to change their mind! Now that WOULD be undemocratic!
 
But Wayne said to leave without a deal would be pie in the sky? I'm just wondering if he was given a fake referendum paper? I think his also had "in the event that you are not happy with the result, you can pester as many people as you can in the hope of getting another vote, and in the event the vote to leave wins, you can claim that there should be some sort of deal that actually means remain". I think I had the shortened version, which is the one posted... :-)
 
Blimey !
According to today's Independent, 2.6 million Leavers have changed their minds.
That's a lot of mind changing by any measurement.
Could it be that fake news/project bollax has decided to ramp it up a gear ?
 
I hope you're all looking forward to a no deal scenario and the uncertainty that could arise. Perhaps those who wish for a no deal will celebrate in their nearest Wetherspoon when it happens. Would you accept a divorce settlement where the other party gets everything, including custody of the children? No, I didn't think so.
 
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