EU strategy to destroy the Chequers ‘agreement’... | Page 3 | Vital Football

EU strategy to destroy the Chequers ‘agreement’...

MedwayModernist said:
It was a FUCKING REFERENDUM!!!

A referendum is a simple question of do you want X or Y, should we do this or should we do that. The choice we had was do we want status quo or do we want something else that we don't really know what it is... and people voted for change, despite the official campaigners for it not exactly agreeing on what it would bloody well be!

We now have more information and realise just exactly how fucking shambolic the whole process will be.
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It was as simple as an election, with a simple question. It only became shambolic when some people realised they could lose money. If you want to stick up for people like Blair and his £3M pension pot, that's up to you. I voted leave to save my job, and my job is now safe :-)
 
Baghdad_Rob said:
Not really.

It should take two countries less time to agree a deal over overlapping interests than a country trying to agree with an entity where one side has to get an opinion from 27 different countries before it can agree something. An EU - Japan deal would cover a wider range of goods and services than would be relevant to a UK - Japan deal. We wouldn't need to discuss and agree on products that might be considered distinctly French or German.
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More of your usual bollocks!
 
LSB2 said:
It was as simple as an election, with a simple question. It only became shambolic when some people realised they could lose money. If you want to stick up for people like Blair and his £3M pension pot, that's up to you. I voted leave to save my job, and my job is now safe :-)
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FFS, a referendum is supposed to be more simple than an election, not more complex, that's why you have them.

Take the Irish abortion referendum. The choice was do you repeal a constitutional amendment, or do you retain. One means that you allow abortion, the other means you do not.

The Scottish referendum, do you want to become an independent country, do you wish to remain as part of the UK.

With the EU one, no-one knew exactly what "Leave" actually meant, and they still do not.

I've no idea why you're bringing up Blair, but it's unrelated to the arguments put forward so far.

In other news, dairy might be a luxury item now if Brexit happens, as per the below, a study completed by the dairy industry.

https://www.arlafoods.co.uk/overvie...ma-of-impossible-choices-post-brexit-2586695/
 
Gordon_Road_Mat said:
I imagine it'll only be a matter of time until a campaign to rejoin will start.

It may take a generation or so, but it'll happen, without all of the lovely vetos we currently have.
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While I agree with the calls for rejoining, I don't think either Labour or the Tories have the stomach to campaign on a new referendum ticket in the next election or two.

By the time any party does call for it, I think the EU will be a completely unrecognisable entity in even half a generation’s time. And there is no certainty that we would if the associated cost was too high.

- How many Remainers would be happy to sign up for the Euro which would be one of the conditions?

- As a result of the lost rebate, would people be happy to pay for the lost rebate by cuts to public services? This is assuming that the contribution before rebate amount is the same and is not suddenly a few extra billions extra for reasons that certainly will not be for punishment reasons.

- In half a generation’s time when the initial fallout has gone and any UK trade deals with the rest of the world have kicked in then maybe people will accept that the UK didn’t go back several hundred years prior to the industrial revolution and things are maybe not as terrible as some would hope.

With some banks in large economies looking shaky, the EU really not being sure of how to deal with the immigrants they have been letting in, and some countries in eastern Europe being less agreeable to closer ties, the EU of the future will be different from the one of now.
 
Wayne.Kerr said:
On that basis, I assume you're retired.
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No? Myself and many others were losing our jobs, because the EU insisted on who has contracts. As soon as the vote to leave came, the plans to get rid of our jobs were dropped. No future plans to get rid out my job, unless the result to leave is overturned maybe. I can't predict the future, sorry...
 
MedwayModernist said:
FFS, a referendum is supposed to be more simple than an election, not more complex, that's why you have them.

Take the Irish abortion referendum. The choice was do you repeal a constitutional amendment, or do you retain. One means that you allow abortion, the other means you do not.

The Scottish referendum, do you want to become an independent country, do you wish to remain as part of the UK.

With the EU one, no-one knew exactly what "Leave" actually meant, and they still do not.

I've no idea why you're bringing up Blair, but it's unrelated to the arguments put forward so far.

In other news, dairy might be a luxury item now if Brexit happens, as per the below, a study completed by the dairy industry.

https://www.arlafoods.co.uk/overvie...ma-of-impossible-choices-post-brexit-2586695/
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At least those referendum results were respected...
 
LSB2 said:
It was as simple as an election, with a simple question. It only became shambolic when some people realised they could lose money. If you want to stick up for people like Blair and his £3M pension pot, that's up to you. I voted leave to save my job, and my job is now safe :-)
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Just imagine if we had a referendum on the death penalty on the same basis, ie yes or no, without qualifying, which crimes would warrant capital punishment. If the 'yes' vote won, then there would be arguments between those who thought it should apply to those who stole a loaf of bread up to high treason and deliberately setting out to kill a policeman or woman in the line of duty; plus, VG who would like all muslims executed.

That's exactly what has happened over the EU referendum; people who voted 'yes' ranged from the very softest to the hardest of Brexiteers. The other thing that [mainly] hard Brexiteers seem to forget is that the win was marginal and, in a democracy, you can't ignore a substantial minority. That's why we don't have the sort of draconian laws in this country that are commonplace in a dictatorship. Even if one party gets in on a landslide laws are passed to suit the whole population and over time.

Thatcher, whatever you think of her, would never had had a referendum because she believed in the parliamentary system we have in the UK; she fought to change the EU from within because she knew the UK was on to a good thing. Cameron was weak and bowed to yesterday's man Farage, who has consistently failed to get elected, instead of telling him to piss off. By what yardstick are those claiming May is backtracking on the referendum result applying? There was no yardstick; moreover, 52% out of a 72% turnout is hardly a runaway victory and, when there is debate, the Leavers should be mindful of that rather than accuse the process of being undermined by bitter Remainers. The ardent Brexiteers need to be careful they don't cause a general election to be held.
 
LSB2 who's said we're not leaving ? If we leave the referendum result has been upheld. You've got absolutely no say on what form 'leaving' should take because you weren't asked. That's why sensible people are suggesting a second vote on whatever form 'leaving' finally takes. At the moment we're in the position of someone who has been persuaded that the time has come to change their car but only now is it becoming clear that the only choice of a new car is a beaten up wreck.
 
LSB2 said:
At least those referendum results were respected...
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This referendum result was respected but no-one knew what leaving entailed; ask 100 leavers and you'll get 100 different answers as to what they thought leave meant.
 
LSB2 said:
No? Myself and many others were losing our jobs, because the EU insisted on who has contracts. As soon as the vote to leave came, the plans to get rid of our jobs were dropped. No future plans to get rid out my job, unless the result to leave is overturned maybe. I can't predict the future, sorry...
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What do you mean by the EU insisted on who has contracts - a genuine question, thanks
 
Therealwaldo said:
LSB2 who's said we're not leaving ? If we leave the referendum result has been upheld. You've got absolutely no say on what form 'leaving' should take because you weren't asked. That's why sensible people are suggesting a second vote on whatever form 'leaving' finally takes. At the moment we're in the position of someone who has been persuaded that the time has come to change their car but only now is it becoming clear that the only choice of a new car is a beaten up wreck.
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We've already had a second vote. A General Election in which people had a choice between hardish Brexit (Tories), softish Brexit (Labour), No Brexit (Lib-Dem) and hardest Brexit imaginable (UKIP). The latter two were utterly rejected. Of course there are other issues at play in a General Election but if Brexit means as much to people as it appears to then it should at least inform your decision. That it returned an inconclusive result is unfortunate but for any progress to be made in my opinion a new Parliament needs to be elected, and if the rebels on both sides can't support their own parties policies on Brexit as written in the manifesto then they shouldn't stand for that party.
 
RotherhitheGill said:
The last election had nothing to do with the referendum, and the results cannot be aligned to any of the four options you suggest.
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Nothing to do with the referendum, eh? Around Easter last year on the back of strong opinion polls, May stated that she wanted to strengthen her hand in Brexit negotiations. With official Brexit talks with the EU due to start in mid-June, May claimed Labour, the SNP and the Lib Dems would try to destabilise and frustrate the process in Parliament. She failed miserably in the election and any destabilisation is coming from the avid Brexiteers in her own party, even though we didn't vote for a hard Brexit when putting an X in the Leave box.
 
Those that carried out research after the general election found out some interesting stuff. People would have voted Liberal Democrat to strengthen the remain position but looking at the opinion polls saw that as a wasted vote. They saw Labour as a way of softening the Tory approach to Brexit and hence Labour did better than predicted. However, because of the general lack of trust in Corbyn, that move was insufficient to put Labour in power. Looking at the current opinion polls, a new general election wouldn't get us out of the mess because it would probably result in another hung parliament. Of course that's always supposing that the Tories could actually write a manifesto that the party would agree on !
 
Wayne.Kerr said:
What do you mean by the EU insisted on who has contracts - a genuine question, thanks
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Yes, the EU controls who gets some of the contracts.
As for the other posts, I do agree with most of what is said. I do feel we should have another referendum on the leaving deal, if there is one. I do not think there should be another referendum on leaving, as that is done and dusted to me. The question was to leave the EU, and people can argue about the wording, but that is the way the question was poorly written. There can be numerous opinions on why people voted to leave, but it is only relevant if the same people are asked why they voted how they did in an election. Of course people vote for whatever for their own reasons. My wife voted the stay, because she wanted the EU to stop this government allowing the use of pesticides that are killing honeybees. it didn't, but then we are only ever to make the choices on the piece of paper, not why we are making those choices.
 
What is clear is that Parliament is split and cannot really function. Winning major votes by 3 shows how split it is.

The only pragmatic solution is to delay the date we leave the EU until we have a parliment who can agree the UK's negotiating position with the EU.

There are only really two ways to achieve that

(1) Hold a general election and see what happens.
(2) Give the government more time to see if they come up with a plan that the UK parliament can support with decent numbers.

At the moment a hard brexit is looking more and more likely. Some people will like the idea of that - Brexit means Brexit and others will be really scared about the volatility that will bring to the economy.

The only fact today is parliament is at an impasse and is no fit state to agree the UK negotiating position with the EU.

Everything else is just peoples opinions.
 
You can't say that the General Election was a second vote, because that doesn't take into account all of the other aspects included on the manifesto of each party.

It also doesn't take into the fact we use an unrepresentative electoral system that essentially makes most peoples votes meaningless. Many people who would have voted for the Anti-Brexit Greens or Lib Dems would probably vote Labour in a tory safe seat.

Then you have many people in traditional working class areas would never vote for any party but Labour, but still voted overwhelmingly for Leave. The problem is it's never been clear cut.

Leave means Leave, Brexit means Brexit, it reeks of doublethink where no one really knows what these words actually mean, yet have to believe in them.
 
MedwayModernist said:
In other news, dairy might be a luxury item now if Brexit happens, as per the below, a study completed by the dairy industry.

https://www.arlafoods.co.uk/overvie...ma-of-impossible-choices-post-brexit-2586695/
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Thanks for providing that link with the paragraph "Brexit might bring opportunities to expand the UK industry in the long term".

Highlights the growth opportunities if May grows a pair so we can finally untangle ourselves from the dictatorial European superstate.
 
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