Eating meat is immoral | Page 8 | Vital Football

Eating meat is immoral

hulloutpost said:
Whatever, if somebody wants to be vegan good for them. If somebody wants to eat meat, good for them.

That video is designed to insult omnivores and put them on a guilt trip, therefore I don't give a shit how the actor or the people behind the propaganda within it feel about their views. They've obviously never heard of diplomacy or winning hearts and minds.

I do find that if 'you' insult a whole body of people (omnivores in this case) and try to make them feel guilty, it more often than not backfires and turns people against an argument; 'they' tend to become more entrenched in their views.

Likewise if you make the argument all about 'you' and your own feelings/beliefs people often switch off.

Some people may listen or be swayed, but usually insulting people doesn't make them want to 'vote' for you - unless of course they are easily bullied or are emotionally insecure and want to be seen as 'on message' or trending.

What works better is somebody putting forward an idea in a non confrontational, thoughtful and respectful manner, explaining the benefits and gains to be had for the recipient and others involved in the process. That would of course require compromise.

A good example of that is Fairtrade. Many years ago when Fairtrade came out I remember being bombarded by 'activist' messages telling me what a bad person I was on several levels if I didn't go out and only buy Fairtrade stuff where it was available - instant result of two fingers from me and 'I'm not even going to listen to what you have to say' if your starting point is calling me a selfish, heartless, capitalist pig for eating a Toblerone.

A little later I watched a program where some supporters of Fairtrade started their presentation on the basis that you are not a bad person for buying non Fairtrade goods but would you kindly give me a little of your time to allow us to explain how Fairtrade is an ethical and beneficial system. At the end they signed off by saying, of course nobody should tell you what you must and can only buy but next time you're looking at for example coffee or chocolate would you please consider Fairtrade as an option.

You won't be surprised to discover that is exactly what I do now and whilst I will still buy e.g. a Toblerone if that is exactly what I fancy, I will also often consciously look for and buy a Fairtrade item at other times.

Here's an offer Impede and I'm not being facetious with this. Make your starting point that eating meat doesn't make me a bad person and I am perfectly entitled to do so. Having done that, link me to (non preachy and non judgemental independent and science based sources) the benefits of eating more vegetarian options and less meat.

Accept I am still most likely going to eat some meat and if I am, how about as a compromise to be going on with, link me to some info. on meat producers/organisations that care for their animals in a more ethical way so that I can actively seek out and choose their produce over less savoury operators.

If your position is that all meat eating is evil and therefore it must be stopped for everyone (is that your view?) you will be waiting forever as that is not going to happen. If you take a more realistic approach and are prepared to compromise, provided you can persuade people with your argument you might just see people choosing to eat more vegetarian options and choose more ethical options, myself included. Surely that is realistic and preferential to the impossible idealistic dream?

The onus is on the 'vegan' community as currently I like eating meat and it's not up to me to change my choices or look into alternatives. The manner of how the vegan message is imparted to the omnivore masses, will I suggest, directly influence how many of us choose to eat less meat, or even become fully vegetarians/vegans.
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There is no humane way to raise an animal to adolescence and slaughter it. Saying there is a humane way is just a lie to make omnivores feel less guilty. Anybody who buys animal cadavers is funding animal abuse. We speak for the abused animals, not ourselves. If you do not like the truth, look in the mirror and ask yourself why you do not like the truth.
 
impede said:
There is no humane way to raise an animal to adolescence and slaughter it. Saying there is a humane way is just a lie to make omnivores feel less guilty. Anybody who buys animal cadavers is funding animal abuse. We speak for the abused animals, not ourselves. If you do not like the truth, look in the mirror and ask yourself why you do not like the truth.
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I never said there was a humane way to kill something, but I'm still happy to eat meat - I have evolved to and my body is designed to do just that. It is a way of obtaining a nutritional diet.

I feel zero guilt about eating meat in a generic sense; if I did I would be a vegetarian/vegan. If people don't like that, tough. What I am prepared to do is listen to the benefits of a vegetarian, or at least a less meat intense diet and I am open minded to sourcing my reduced animal intake from less questionable sources. For example I won't eat foie gras, veal or eggs from battery farms, based upon what I have picked up along the way because I don't agree with the farming practices involved in those particular circumstances. Ironically foie gras is banned by UK food standards but legal in the EU; but I bet you knew that anyway.

In other words I have made some compromises but I still reserve my choice to eat meat for nutritional purposes. Wouldn't you rather that you educated me so that I am more inclined to further refine my choices to reduce your definition of suffering to animals? But remember insulting and dictating to people doesn't work on most people and certainly not me.

Or is it a case of all (eating of meat to be made illegal) or nothing from your perspective? If so, having it all is not going to happen (unless you are in denial you also know that) and wouldn't it be better if you accepted the reality and found a more effective approach to encouraging people to at least reduce their meat intake and cause less suffering (by your values) to some animals?

If not, then surely what you are potentially perpetuating is the (actual physical) suffering of more animals because you are not prepared to compromise your personal (theoretical) moral code and beliefs to save some animals.

That seems an extreme approach to me; allowing some animals to suffer because various animal welfare activist groups aren't prepared to engage with omnivores in a civilised and more effective manner. Anybody would think they are more concerned with venting their fury on people they disagree with, rather than actually doing something sensible to benefit some animals, even if they can't all be saved.
 
hulloutpost said:
I never said there was a humane way to kill something, but I'm still happy to eat meat - I have evolved to and my body is designed to do just that. It is a way of obtaining a nutritional diet.

I feel zero guilt about eating meat in a generic sense; if I did I would be a vegetarian/vegan. If people don't like that, tough. What I am prepared to do is listen to the benefits of a vegetarian, or at least a less meat intense diet and I am open minded to sourcing my reduced animal intake from less questionable sources. For example I won't eat foie gras, veal or eggs from battery farms, based upon what I have picked up along the way because I don't agree with the farming practices involved in those particular circumstances. Ironically foie gras is banned by UK food standards but legal in the EU; but I bet you knew that anyway.

In other words I have made some compromises but I still reserve my choice to eat meat for nutritional purposes. Wouldn't you rather that you educated me so that I am more inclined to further refine my choices to reduce your definition of suffering to animals? But remember insulting and dictating to people doesn't work on most people and certainly not me.

Or is it a case of all (eating of meat to be made illegal) or nothing from your perspective? If so, having it all is not going to happen (unless you are in denial you also know that) and wouldn't it be better if you accepted the reality and found a more effective approach to encouraging people to at least reduce their meat intake and cause less suffering (by your values) to some animals?

If not, then surely what you are potentially perpetuating is the (actual physical) suffering of more animals because you are not prepared to compromise your personal (theoretical) moral code and beliefs to save some animals.

That seems an extreme approach to me; allowing some animals to suffer because various animal welfare activist groups aren't prepared to engage with omnivores in a civilised and more effective manner. Anybody would think they are more concerned with venting their fury on people they disagree with, rather than actually doing something sensible to benefit some animals, even if they can't all be saved.
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How come it always those with least to say, say the most. I shall answer your points in turn.

  • I have evolved to and my body is designed to do just that.

So you believe in evolution to the point where humans in Western Societies eat at least ten times the amount of meat we 'evolved to eat' but you do not believe that we can evolve to realize, that now we do not need to eat meat, things like compassion and empathy should inform our food choices.

  • It is a way of obtaining a nutritional diet.

I would be interested to hear what I am nutritionally deficient in

  • Or is it a case of all (eating of meat to be made illegal) or nothing from your perspective?
I absolutely think eating meat should be illegal. I regard it as animal abuse. I am surprised you had to ask that. However, I have experience on a daily basis that knuckledraggers will defend their right to eat meat. You only have to look on comments sections of local newspapers everytime they post anything remotely vegan. You get all the 'but bacon', 'but evolution', 'but God put them here for us to eat them' crap. But of course it vegans shoving our views down people's throats. Carnists obviously never do that, do they? And we do not have wall to wall adverts for meat on commercial channels at all do we? However, with the growth of lab alternatives to factory farmed meat, the meat industry will die out sooner rather than later.

We are speaking for the oppressed, abused and murdered, who have no voice of their own. Why should we stop doing that? I know what happens to animals stuck in the meat indsutry. I do not shut my eyes, put my fingers in my ears and chant "I can't hear you"
 
impede said:
How come it always those with least to say, say the most. I shall answer your points in turn.

  • I have evolved to and my body is designed to do just that.

So you believe in evolution to the point where humans in Western Societies eat at least ten times the amount of meat we 'evolved to eat' but you do not believe that we can evolve to realize, that now we do not need to eat meat, things like compassion and empathy should inform our food choices.

  • It is a way of obtaining a nutritional diet.

I would be interested to hear what I am nutritionally deficient in

  • Or is it a case of all (eating of meat to be made illegal) or nothing from your perspective?
I absolutely think eating meat should be illegal. I regard it as animal abuse. I am surprised you had to ask that. However, I have experience on a daily basis that knuckledraggers will defend their right to eat meat. You only have to look on comments sections of local newspapers everytime they post anything remotely vegan. You get all the 'but bacon', 'but evolution', 'but God put them here for us to eat them' crap. But of course it vegans shoving our views down people's throats. Carnists obviously never do that, do they? And we do not have wall to wall adverts for meat on commercial channels at all do we? However, with the growth of lab alternatives to factory farmed meat, the meat industry will die out sooner rather than later.

We are speaking for the oppressed, abused and murdered, who have no voice of their own. Why should we stop doing that? I know what happens to animals stuck in the meat indsutry. I do not shut my eyes, put my fingers in my ears and chant "I can't hear you"
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Your Point 1 - Nowhere have I said that I'm not open to being re-educated about the type of meat and amount of meat I eat. Quite the opposite actually if you understand what I've put. I do reserve the choice to eat the amount of meat I want to from the sources I am satisfied with.

Point 2 - I have no idea or interest what your body is or isn't deficient in. That's your decisions and choices as are those for my body.

Point 3 - I'm amused that defending the right to eat meat is described as knuckle dragging. People advertising the legal sales of meat is no more or less offensive than somebody advertising a vegan based meal; you just happen to disagree with one option but endorse the other. Neither are offensive, they're just trying to sell their goods.

What I'm suggesting is it's not what you are saying it's how you say it. If you are personally involved in trying to change people's minds and eating habits you may find it beneficial to engage with them in an inclusive debate. Do that and you will effect change from those that are open to it, but accept that you can't convert everyone and there are some that will always be hostile to your views. In other words change the ones you can and don't waste your time on those who aren't interested.

If you are simply looking to be angry and bitter with a view to getting stuff off your chest then carry on spreading your message in an aggressive manner. It may make you feel better but it won't achieve any of your goals, or even make a dent in them.
 
www.theguardian.com

Instead of feeling like a failure, Iâm trying half-arsed veganism â and you can too | Chloë Hamilton

Changing a habit is like untangling a set of Christmas lights. You have to start with the easiest knot and take it from there, asks freelance writer Chloë Hamilton
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

www.theguardian.com

As a scientist, I did a self-experiment to compare a vegan diet with eating meat. Hereâs what I found out | Eric Robinson

Some studies suggest vegans are healthier if more depressed, slimmer but unpopular. Still, veganism works for me, says behavioural scientist Eric Robinson
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
I'd heard of dry January before but not veganuary. I have to say that I can see the benefits of this and would encourage as many people as possible to be open minded and give this a go. It is an opportunity for the masses to try some alternative meat sources and combinations of spices and herbs with traditional vegetarian staples, which closed minded people may consider otherwise bland or insipid. There is even a suggestion from some sources that people may benefit greatly from a health perspective, in addition to contributing to a more humane and less gluttonous world.

So my message is this, please as many people as possible give this a go with immediate effect and throw yourselves wholeheartedly into the project as you know it makes sense. If it goes particularly well I can look forward to absolute shed loads of bootiful meat products being over stocked by supermarkets across the board and I will be spending many a happy hour, hunting, gathering and foraging, for some unbelievable yellow sticker bargains, before I can say 'herb crusted veal'. I may even have to run power to the shed and invest in a chest freezer if it goes viral.
 
hulloutpost said:
I'd heard of dry January before but not veganuary. I have to say that I can see the benefits of this and would encourage as many people as possible to be open minded and give this a go. It is an opportunity for the masses to try some alternative meat sources and combinations of spices and herbs with traditional vegetarian staples, which closed minded people may consider otherwise bland or insipid. There is even a suggestion from some sources that people may benefit greatly from a health perspective, in addition to contributing to a more humane and less gluttonous world.

So my message is this, please as many people as possible give this a go with immediate effect and throw yourselves wholeheartedly into the project as you know it makes sense. If it goes particularly well I can look forward to absolute shed loads of bootiful meat products being over stocked by supermarkets across the board and I will be spending many a happy hour, hunting, gathering and foraging, for some unbelievable yellow sticker bargains, before I can say 'herb crusted veal'. I may even have to run power to the shed and invest in a chest freezer if it goes viral.
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impede said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1741897078354096185
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Not a very big study though is it. If you want to do micro studies, my daughter who was a veggie for about 15 years had been feeling like crap for a long time and went to the doctor a few months ago. Her blood tests identified several issues, thankfully none of them serious - but nonetheless, enough for her GP to ask her to consider some voluntary dietary changes around naturally occurring vitamins and iron.

She wasn't advised to give up being a veggie but after some research she decided to eat fish, lean white and red meats from reputable sources. She recently had normal, very healthy blood test results and no longer feels like crap.

Neither your, nor my examples prove diddly but at least I have no doubt about the veracity of my daughter - after all for over half of her life she was a committed veggie.

Am I pleased my daughter is feeling so much better; you betcha. Do I give a flying toss that some animals died to seemingly achieve that. You bet I don't.
 
Jeez. One day one of you complete and utter moronic Muppets are going to post a meme that I, and just about every other vegan, has not seen umpteen times before. You are all just so fucking predictable and boring.
 
impede said:
You see , this is how lame you are. This sort of thing is a daily occurrence in our world. But as you literally have no empathy at all, you think you are all the first and oh so original
https://twitter.com/x/status/1748063045413167197
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Oi, you want to hear the ridicule I get from my family for carefully re locating the spiders outside after they are freaking out over something about a quarter inch across (that's about 6.35mm for you impede).
 
impede said:
Indoor spiders will not survive outdoors. Try your shed next time #freeadvice
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While we are on #freeadvice: There is a trench behind my perimeter fence and in the cold, wet weather, should any rats fix bayonets and go over the top, is it acceptable to deploy lethal force under those circumstances.
 
hulloutpost said:
While we are on #freeadvice: There is a trench behind my perimeter fence and in the cold, wet weather, should any rats fix bayonets and go over the top, is it acceptable to deploy lethal force under those circumstances.
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No need to really. Very few problems with rats if you can keep them out of your house. They get an underserved bad press. I find most of the people who moan about them on social media are generally the sort of skeffy twats who drop food in the street.
 
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