Democracy in the UK... | Page 81 | Vital Football

Democracy in the UK...

stokeimp

Vital Squad Member
I find the Left/Right issue concerning Brexit interesting, and I wonder if /how attitudes have changed over the last 50 years or so. Certainly over that period Europe has been the Achilles heel of both main parties (Libs are the only "constant" Europeans).

We now tend to think that Pro Europe is essentially Left, and Anti Europe essentially Right. However, using Lincoln as an example, in the early 70s there was a big bust up between the Lincoln Labour Party, which was quite left wing, and the (Labour) MP Dick Taverne. He was right of centre and pro joining the Common Market, whereas the local Labour party was very much anti - this led to him being deselected as Labour candidate. He won the next election as an independent, and ultimately became a Lib Dem (Margaret Jackson - now Beckett - beat him in the next election)

Have to say in '75 I voted Out in the Referendum, whereas in 2016 I voted Remain.
 

simes69

Vital 1st Team Regular
I find the Left/Right issue concerning Brexit interesting, and I wonder if /how attitudes have changed over the last 50 years or so. Certainly over that period Europe has been the Achilles heel of both main parties (Libs are the only "constant" Europeans).

We now tend to think that Pro Europe is essentially Left, and Anti Europe essentially Right. However, using Lincoln as an example, in the early 70s there was a big bust up between the Lincoln Labour Party, which was quite left wing, and the (Labour) MP Dick Taverne. He was right of centre and pro joining the Common Market, whereas the local Labour party was very much anti - this led to him being deselected as Labour candidate. He won the next election as an independent, and ultimately became a Lib Dem (Margaret Jackson - now Beckett - beat him in the next election)

Have to say in '75 I voted Out in the Referendum, whereas in 2016 I voted Remain.
Labour back in the 70s and 80s were suspicious of the European project because it was capitalist. Tony Benn was anti, so too Foot I think. This explains Corbyn's indifference as he was a product of that era.

Kate Hoey is a disgrace. IIRC she was actually in Blair's cabinet (sports minister?) at the time of the GFA in 1998.
 

HoofGrantBrown

Vital Squad Member
I find the Left/Right issue concerning Brexit interesting, and I wonder if /how attitudes have changed over the last 50 years or so. Certainly over that period Europe has been the Achilles heel of both main parties (Libs are the only "constant" Europeans).

We now tend to think that Pro Europe is essentially Left, and Anti Europe essentially Right. However, using Lincoln as an example, in the early 70s there was a big bust up between the Lincoln Labour Party, which was quite left wing, and the (Labour) MP Dick Taverne. He was right of centre and pro joining the Common Market, whereas the local Labour party was very much anti - this led to him being deselected as Labour candidate. He won the next election as an independent, and ultimately became a Lib Dem (Margaret Jackson - now Beckett - beat him in the next election)

Have to say in '75 I voted Out in the Referendum, whereas in 2016 I voted Remain.

Yes indeed. Always been a strong anti EU strand in the left, and is still very much there with the likes of that Scouse union leader who's name escapes me, but who has still never left the 1970s behind.

The EU has certainly evolved since its early days and whilst it could do with more improvement in how it organises itself, it does now give far more gains than compared to being outside it.
Although EFTA membership also offers plenty of the same benefits too.
 

NottyImp

Vital Football Legend
"The EU has certainly evolved since its early days and whilst it could do with more improvement in how it organises itself, it does now give far more gains than compared to being outside it.
Although EFTA membership also offers plenty of the same benefits too."

Of which we have neither.
 

NottyImp

Vital Football Legend
Yes, there have definitely been a fair few "Lexiters". Of course, the opposite is true: Thatcher was a big fan of the single-market, for example.

I'm still not sure what Brexiters actually wanted, to be honest, other than some vague notion of "sovereignty" that could never be realised in practice when the realities of international trade are made apparent.

I also find it odd none of them seem especially concerned about how shit our government - and political system - is, but get into a frothing rage about the "undemocratic" and "bureaucratic" EU.

Oh well. Doesn't really affect me. I'm not going bankrupt.

As the phrase goes: you won, get over it.
 

Sincilbanks

Vital 1st Team Regular
I find the Left/Right issue concerning Brexit interesting, and I wonder if /how attitudes have changed over the last 50 years or so. Certainly over that period Europe has been the Achilles heel of both main parties (Libs are the only "constant" Europeans).

We now tend to think that Pro Europe is essentially Left, and Anti Europe essentially Right. However, using Lincoln as an example, in the early 70s there was a big bust up between the Lincoln Labour Party, which was quite left wing, and the (Labour) MP Dick Taverne. He was right of centre and pro joining the Common Market, whereas the local Labour party was very much anti - this led to him being deselected as Labour candidate. He won the next election as an independent, and ultimately became a Lib Dem (Margaret Jackson - now Beckett - beat him in the next election)

Have to say in '75 I voted Out in the Referendum, whereas in 2016 I voted Remain.
I don't think all of "we" think that "We now tend to think that Pro Europe is essentially Left, and Anti Europe essentially Right. "
 

MaineRoad_96

Vital 1st Team Regular
Kate Hoey, former MP for Vauxhall, one of the most ethnically diverse constituencies in the UK and home to a large Portuguese community, which voted overwhelmingly to remain. British democracy right there.

Im afraid those who believed in Lexit completely misunderstood British politics/society, and the ingrained English psyche of meanness, selfishness and fear of the ‘other’. They foolishly thought that a Lexit could deliver them better working conditions, better pay, better life opportunities (when all evidence to the contrary shows that being part of the EU has helped deliver this). In fact all they’ve voted for is a race to the bottom of unhinged deregulation. ‘Levelling up’ in fact means the exact opposite.
 

NottyImp

Vital Football Legend
Ah, he wanted to leave on WTO terms? Actually even worse than the shit deal we got.

Let him feed his family on being "an independent coastal state" with "sovreignty" for pudding.
 

HoofGrantBrown

Vital Squad Member
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55650411
Not democracy as such, but a glaring example of how ridiculously bad we are at budgeting, planning, delivering and managing any venture of magnitude. A legacy whereby it's cheaper to cancel events than run them!
I look forward to the bill for the white elephants railway. As I'm sure do the contractors building it.
Has it ever been found who may have "benefitted personally" from West Ham getting the most ridiculous bargain ever (to the tune of multi multi millilons undercharged) when they moved to the Olympic Stadium?
Wonder who was London Mayor back then? Anyone answering to the name of Boris?
 

MaineRoad_96

Vital 1st Team Regular
Has it ever been found who may have "benefitted personally" from West Ham getting the most ridiculous bargain ever (to the tune of multi multi millilons undercharged) when they moved to the Olympic Stadium?
Wonder who was London Mayor back then? Anyone answering to the name of Boris?
Baroness Karen Brady might be able to help you out with that one.