Democracy in the UK... | Page 57 | Vital Football

Democracy in the UK...

NottyImp

Vital Football Legend
I should also point out that, unlike a corner-shop, we have a fiat currency that - literally - allows us to print money.

Gotta be careful with that, but with inflation at low rates, it's always an option.

A sensible industrial and infrastructure strategy would involve a National Reconstruction Bank, for example.
 
I realise it's far more complex than a corner shop...
... but unsound economic practices tend to eventually catch up with you. I realise to a certain extent you can kick the can down the road but if you do it too hard and often you are almost certainly going to get into trouble.

The Weimar Republic got into difficulties printing money and that didn't turn out too well, from my vague memory of history at school.

The banking crisis was caused by unsound practices which the bankers hoped would never crystallize.

I have no problem per se with higher taxes if it's justified (and that's always going to differ from person to person). We will surely have to raise them to pay for Covid and fully in favour.

And in favour of tax avoidance being stopped and global companies being properly taxes although usually easier to say than do whichever party is in government.

Complex or simple if neither main party ever addresses the fundamental logic you can't spend more than you have, year on year something will eventually go bang.

If not, let's just follow the logic to an ultimate conclusion and spend of any and everything we want. I'll start by asking for £100k annual pension from 18 and all will be well.
 
Last edited:

NottyImp

Vital Football Legend
I realise it's far more complex than a corner shop...
... but unsound economic practices tend to eventually catch up with you. I realise to a certain extent you can kick the can down the road but if you do it too hard and often you are almost certainly going to get into trouble.

The Weimar Republic got into difficulties printing money and that didn't turn out too well, from my vague memory of history at school.

The banking crisis was caused by unsound practices which the bankers hoped would never crystallize.

I have no problem per se with higher taxes if it's justified (and that's always going to differ from person to person). We will surely have to raise them to pay for Covid and fully in favour.

And in favour of tax avoidance being stopped and global companies being properly taxes although usually easier to say than do whichever party is in government.

Complex or simple if neither main party ever addresses the fundamental logic you can't spend more than you have, year on year something will eventually go bang.

If not, let's just follow the logic to an ultimate conclusion and spend of any and everything we want. I'll start by asking for £100k annual pension from 18 and all will be well.
Some reasonable points, but read the FT article I linked. The problem is much deeper than looking at national finances, it's a structural problem with the world economy.

If the UK were actually to go bust, virtually every national economy would have gone bust before us.

It's big stuff that needs big thinking. We're probably not very well equipped for that right now. It will probably take another dusaster like WW2 for something to be done.
 
Some reasonable points, but read the FT article I linked. The problem is much deeper than looking at national finances, it's a structural problem with the world economy.

If the UK were actually to go bust, virtually every national economy would have gone bust before us.

It's big stuff that needs big thinking. We're probably not very well equipped for that right now. It will probably take another dusaster like WW2 for something to be done.
Interesting - pleased to read the article says solution includes - we have to live within our means and spend less than we earn, so a bit like a corner shop.
😉

Enjoyed the debate.
Have a good evening.
UTI
 

NottyImp

Vital Football Legend
Interesting - pleased to read the article says solution includes - we have to live within our means and spend less than we earn, so a bit like a corner shop.
😉

Enjoyed the debate.
Have a good evening.
UTI
Well, it says it's a bit more complex than that, as well, doesn't it? As per my points above, none of which you seem to have addressed.

So yes, have a nice evening thinking about hiw complex economics really is. ;)
 
One point, on National Debt and the now several billions interest per year paid on it.
Why is it never explained by the media, or even asked at all, who all the debt is borrowed from? Because that is the most relevant fact.

And the best that I can garner as to the answer, is government bonds for one, bur mostly pension funds.
So in reality, it is all the pension contributions that are taken out of our pay every month that are funding the big chunk of government borrowing (and also why private pensions have been pushed so much). And the debt interest is what's helping all our little pensions grow to a slightly less little pension (one day maybe!).
 

NottyImp

Vital Football Legend
The simple fact is the UK isn't remotely close to going bust.

The debt as % of GDP graph linked above clearly illustrates that because, historically, it's been far worse and we haven't gone bust then.

The real key is to ensure a more equal distribution of wealth in society to build a healthy, vibrant, sustainable economy.

But nobody seems to want to talk about that.
 

NottyImp

Vital Football Legend
Austerity wasn't ever about balancing the books, it was yet another Tory wheeze to shrink the state and starve the public sector of funds.

The latest Tory wheeze is to starve the public sector of funds whilst stuffing billions of tax-payer's pounds into their and their mate's pockets.

Still, this is what the English voted for.
 

NottyImp

Vital Football Legend
To give another example, anyone owning a house generally has a mortgage that is at least 3 times annual income, and often more.

We don't bat an eyelid at that (although perhaps we should!).

National finances look positively sane in comparison.
 

Sincilbanks

Vital 1st Team Regular
To give another example, anyone owning a house generally has a mortgage that is at least 3 times annual income, and often more.

We don't bat an eyelid at that (although perhaps we should!).

National finances look positively sane in comparison.
If your economy keeps growing you can keep borrowing and keep the books balanced, or as is often the case nowadays if your economy is *projected* to grow you can keep borrowing....
 

NottyImp

Vital Football Legend
If your economy keeps growing you can keep borrowing and keep the books balanced, or as is often the case nowadays if your economy is *projected* to grow you can keep borrowing....
Indeed, if your economy grows by, say, 2%, your debt can grow similarly and still be the same proportion of GDP (although bigger in absolute terms, of course). It's why advanced capitalist economies constantly chase growth.

Of course, some analyses see this as a bad thing...

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/11/economic-growth/506423/
 
Indeed, if your economy grows by, say, 2%, your debt can grow similarly and still be the same proportion of GDP (although bigger in absolute terms, of course). It's why advanced capitalist economies constantly chase growth.

Of course, some analyses see this as a bad thing...

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/11/economic-growth/506423/
It is a basic tenet of modern Green parties that year after year of economic growth is fundamentally flawed and ultimately fatal to the planet.
I get that.
World population growing and growing is likewise unsustainable. But who can tell who to stop reproducing? Do we all go full China mode and say no more than one child per family? Or an adapted version of that with a limit of two children?
And with longer lifetimes becoming more normal, how do we cater for more and more people of working age needing work (whilst not having unstoppable growth) and funding the care of more and more people beyond working age?
 

NottyImp

Vital Football Legend
It is a basic tenet of modern Green parties that year after year of economic growth is fundamentally flawed and ultimately fatal to the planet.
I get that.
World population growing and growing is likewise unsustainable. But who can tell who to stop reproducing? Do we all go full China mode and say no more than one child per family? Or an adapted version of that with a limit of two children?
And with longer lifetimes becoming more normal, how do we cater for more and more people of working age needing work (whilst not having unstoppable growth) and funding the care of more and more people beyond working age?
Education and empowerment of women is the biggest economic boost you can give developing countries and usually leads to lower birth-rates, but, of course, that isn't always easy to instigate or maintain.

With respect to longer life-spans and automation/AI, I think we're going to have look at some form of universal basic income/citizen's wage at some point in the future.

And then there's climate-change challenges.

We need to re-think the whole economy, tbh, from top to bottom. I doubt our politicians are up to up in any party.