Democracy in Crisis?

BodyButter

BodyButter

Vital Football Legend
Watching the divisions in America between those who support Trump as an outsider who can shake up the system and those who fear that Trump is a maniac has got me thinking about western democracy in general.

I'm not in America or from America so I have a limited perspective on what's happening in their election from people online and American friends. From my limited perspective it seems that there are very few genuine Hilary supporters. The best anyone can say about her is that she is a safe pair of hands. Most people who support Hilary do so because she's not Trump.

Trump supporters seem much more passionate and emotionally invested in Trump as the outsider who can smash the cosy cabal in Washington. I'm not a Trump supported but I can understand where these people are coming from. They feel betrayed and alienated from a system that's supposed to represent them. They have watched the factories shut down and lie empty. They have seen the infrastructure around them crumble. They have seen the budget cuts bite harder and harder on the areas they care about while the bankers are given all the money in the world. They have been priced out of homes to live in so that million dollar condos can lie empty as investment properties for billionaires.

I think most people in the western world can understand these feelings. I believe that these feelings contributed to the Brexit vote. British voters tried Labour, the Tories and the Lib Dems and it didn't make any difference so when they got their chance they stuck their fingers up at the establishment and voted out.

Trumps popularity reminds me of something Noam Chompsky said about ISIS. I'm paraphrasing but it was along the lines of 'every time we defeat radical Islam, it's replaced by something worse. First it was the Talaban and then Al Qaeda and the ISIS. After ISIS it will be something worse again.'

The anti-establishment politician isn't something new in American politics. They have been around for a long time but they started gaining real traction with the Tea Party. Sarah Palin wasn't a real threat to the system but her supporters are real and have genuine grievances with what's happening. Every time they get brushed off, they come back stronger and more determined to be heard. Those supporters are now fully behind Trump.

My fear is for what happens next. I don't imagine for a second that Trump cares for America or has any intention of helping 'the people'. He'll line his own pockets and screw over everyone else just like he has always done. So either he loses the election to Hilary or he fails the people who elected him (just like Obama). And then they come back stronger and more determined to be heard next time...
 
"No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." - Winston Churchill, 11 November 1947.

It's interesting that this should have been coined at this time of year as I believe it had no context in the US elections.
 
Do we really have a democracy. It's all an illusion really.
 
We have representative democracy, it's not an illusion but it's not true, direct democracy either.

 
I do wonder if joining political parties on mass would change the situation. If 18 million people in the UK joined their favoured party and started attending meetings and holding MPs to account, would it change things?
 
It would certainly result in a more knowlegable electorate, which can surely only be a good thing.
 
This is almost like a soap opera finale's: we had the shock of a Tory majority last year, followed by Brexit and Trump V Clinton is the crescendo. Is this the ''end time'' :17:
 
Villan Of The North - 8/11/2016 16:54

It would certainly result in a more knowlegable electorate, which can surely only be a good thing.
Click to expand...

That's the last thing the ruling elite would want. Then everyone would figure out just how incompetent they all. Centuries of bluff and blunder exposed by people actually taking an interest !
 
Irish guy, living in NY for the last 3 years.

There is a guy called Dan Carlin he has two podcast Hardcore History which is truly excellent and Common Sense, Common Sense is more or less heavily political and largely from the American context. Its really good for me to understand stuff about America and I expect a new episode to come out tomorrow or later in the week.

He breaks things down very well but you'd have to go way back for some of the good stuff.

Essentially most people who are voting for Trump are voting for change, Hillary is basically going to be more of the same. Bernie Sanders was also a vote for change however the Democrats actively pursued avenues to stop Bernie becoming its nominee and its something which the Republicans cannot do to the same degree so they got stuck with Trump.

Trump in my opinion is exactly like some people I know who wanted Brexit. My roommate said he would vote to leave the EU 'just to see what happens', thats what you'd expect given he isnt living in England for the foreseeable and thats exactly what people are doing with Trump.

I was in Trumps court until I saw the debates and I was in because I thought Clinton is just same old, same old but Trump has been so vile I'd rather not see it happen.
 
Excellent first post, and yes the last year for lots of things, the pussy grabbing wants to shag his daughter takes bankruptcy as the easy way to keep his pockets lined is the protest vote as CDX points out.

Problem for me is why do we now have a planet who physically wants to harm themselves with 'what if' instead of getting off their arse and effecting real change.

Lazy option innit...how many months before Trump voters (many of whom admit he's unfit and they were on air!) are crying looking for somebody to save them?

Fucking idiots - you don't make a point about death rates in the NHS by employing Dr Shipman!
 
I'm curious as to how this will play out. Trump's promises of keeping Mexicans out and forcing American companies to make things in America seem unattainable but those are the promises that got him elected. If he doesn't keep them, his supporters will turn to someone more extreme.
 
To be honest I think it shows democracy is alive and well. Yes I cannot believe Americans voted for a nutcase,but huge swathes of people often called the silent majority have started to get involved in politics
fed up of being ignored and down trodden they have finally started to get active. Yep I do not envy the Americans having Trump as president but then again
would I have envied them with Clinton ? nope
They were between a rock and hard place so held their noses and took a gamble may have been wrong choice but that is the essence of democracy making the choice.
 
Democracy has been given a shot in the arm by the likes of Brexit. Of course the ruling liberal elite don't like it when they don't win so they will try any means democratic or not to get their way.
 
Not only do the ruling elite not like it, but neither do a lot of the 40million odd others in the country who didn't vote for brexit
 
Yes, as the title says....in crisis

No one really has a choice anyway, it's all the illusion of choice, and you'll be forced to do what they want anyway in the end
 
Yes, approximately 40 million (actually over 40 million).

16 million or so voted remain.
13 million didn't vote (who were eligible)
18.5 million who couldn't vote

If 16 year olds and above could vote, we could very well have had a different outcome. Old enough to serve in the army, not old enough to vote.
 
Didn't they bother to vote then?

Bit naughty that mate!!!!!!!!!!!!

Must admit, this thread seems to be repeating what we're discussing in the EU one and the Trump one. Makes things a bit complicated knowing where to post what?!?!???
 
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