Dalian Atkinson Murder Trial | Page 3 | Vital Football

Dalian Atkinson Murder Trial

in America there is lots of evidence that persons under the influence of street drugs, tasering makes no difference. Numerous filmed evidence is available of persons high or on adrenaline tasering has no effect. Do not know if 30 seconds would. The American evidence often ends up by the offender being shot.

in this case it appears that DA was tasered once 5 seconds, no effect. Both officers run away. DA returns to fathers house and smashes a window. Officers return and Taser again 5 seconds. Again no effect and he continues to shout and threaten. He is then tasered for 33 seconds until he collapses. Unknown to officers he has heart condition and kidney which in effect spiral in to critical condition.
I am not suggesting what happened and what happened next are defenceable but in a frightening, threatening position it is understandable and his defence should be heard. Society often puts people in in exceptionable and frightening position and wonder why they act in an extreme way.
I think that is a reasonable post.

Tasering for 30 seconds though is surely a bad idea; if tasering is not working then doing more of it is certainly not a wise strategy, especially in light of what you say at the beginning of your post.

Kicking in the head is obviously indefensible.

Surely backup and a van should have been sought if the only weapon available to officers on the scene were not working- I believe the tasering guidance is 3 seconds?

I agree that we should make allowances for people who put themselves on the line in high pressure situations and for the fact that, in the heat of the moment, they may make the wrong judgement call with tragic results.

But we also have to straddle the line of allowing police to act with impunity.
 
This has nothing to do with right wing/left wing or black or white. Several people have called it a murder. Is it a right wing thing to believe in a fair trial ? This case has nothing to do with Chauvin, who was found guilty. I never said or suspected that Chauvin wasn't guilty, though I have less faith in US juries. This isn't a murder unless the jury decide it is. Unlike some on here, I will wait for the trial outcome, and details from the prosecution AND the defence.

I'm a near life long Labour supporter, so I've no idea what a right winger would think about anything......

Unlike some on here, I've never said that anyone is not entitled to an opinion. Just that I prefer to hear both sides of the story before I make my mind up.

I guess I was unfair. Sorry.
The issue I have is that I often have these kind of conversations with Americans (about once a week recently) and its always the same people going on about fair trials when a cop has been videod shooting a kid in the back when they run away or whatever and usually its in response to people suggesting that maybe the cop shouldn't have done that.
I just put you in that group but i was probably wrong.
 
Both Pope and I am a tree are taking a reasonable stance. The PC has a lot to answer for and it isn’t unusual for practice to differ from policy. The crux for me is this PC’s past record. Has he a record of over stepping the mark or is this action out of character. Even if out of character the continuing of tasering once down plus kicking is ABH.
 
in America there is lots of evidence that persons under the influence of street drugs, tasering makes no difference. Numerous filmed evidence is available of persons high or on adrenaline tasering has no effect. Do not know if 30 seconds would. The American evidence often ends up by the offender being shot.

in this case it appears that DA was tasered once 5 seconds, no effect. Both officers run away. DA returns to fathers house and smashes a window. Officers return and Taser again 5 seconds. Again no effect and he continues to shout and threaten. He is then tasered for 33 seconds until he collapses. Unknown to officers he has heart condition and kidney which in effect spiral in to critical condition.
I am not suggesting what happened and what happened next are defenceable but in a frightening, threatening position it is understandable and his defence should be heard. Society often puts people in in exceptionable and frightening position and wonder why they act in an extreme way.
The only problem with that is that the third hit dropped Atkinson pretty much instantly. The officer held it on anyway.

The maximum recommended time is 5 seconds per ‘hit’ as any more can have potentially lethal consequences. Dalian Atkinson was effectively being electrocuted for over six times the recommended limit. Then he was kicked in the head.

They had called for backup and that backup is actually testifying against them which when the normal accusation is of police officers closing ranks is pretty telling.

I fully accept that they are allowed to present a defence. I am just unsure as to what that defence could possibly be.
 
The only problem with that is that the third hit dropped Atkinson pretty much instantly. The officer held it on anyway.

The maximum recommended time is 5 seconds per ‘hit’ as any more can have potentially lethal consequences. Dalian Atkinson was effectively being electrocuted for over six times the recommended limit. Then he was kicked in the head.

They had called for backup and that backup is actually testifying against them which when the normal accusation is of police officers closing ranks is pretty telling.

I fully accept that they are allowed to present a defence. I am just unsure as to what that defence could possibly be.

I am not in anyway condoning his actions. He was an experienced officer who has been carrying a taser for many years. It is likely that he has used the taser several times. He has probably tasered people who continue to attack after five seconds on numerous occasions. What is taught procedure and street practice is different. What does a policeman do when they are being attacked and the taught procedure of 5 second taser does nothing. Another 5 second taser does nothing.

suggest you put yourself in that PC’s shoes. What do you do? DA has attacked his father repeatedly, smashed property, stated he has killed both his brothers and is now coming for you. The equipment you have is shown not to work. I would suggest your actions are likely to be extreme. In this case, way over the line but we put people in these situations so can only expect extreme responses. His actions are unexcusable but understandable. There has to be some understanding of his feelings and over reaction. That doesn’t mean he is found not guilty. Often it is not so clear and multiple reasons and failures have happened.
 
I am not in anyway condoning his actions. He was an experienced officer who has been carrying a taser for many years. It is likely that he has used the taser several times. He has probably tasered people who continue to attack after five seconds on numerous occasions. What is taught procedure and street practice is different. What does a policeman do when they are being attacked and the taught procedure of 5 second taser does nothing. Another 5 second taser does nothing.

suggest you put yourself in that PC’s shoes. What do you do? DA has attacked his father repeatedly, smashed property, stated he has killed both his brothers and is now coming for you. The equipment you have is shown not to work. I would suggest your actions are likely to be extreme. In this case, way over the line but we put people in these situations so can only expect extreme responses. His actions are unexcusable but understandable. There has to be some understanding of his feelings and over reaction. That doesn’t mean he is found not guilty. Often it is not so clear and multiple reasons and failures have happened.
Don't forget to add to that that Atkinson had threatened the guy's girlfriend.
 
I am not in anyway condoning his actions. He was an experienced officer who has been carrying a taser for many years. It is likely that he has used the taser several times. He has probably tasered people who continue to attack after five seconds on numerous occasions. What is taught procedure and street practice is different. What does a policeman do when they are being attacked and the taught procedure of 5 second taser does nothing. Another 5 second taser does nothing.

suggest you put yourself in that PC’s shoes. What do you do? DA has attacked his father repeatedly, smashed property, stated he has killed both his brothers and is now coming for you. The equipment you have is shown not to work. I would suggest your actions are likely to be extreme. In this case, way over the line but we put people in these situations so can only expect extreme responses. His actions are unexcusable but understandable. There has to be some understanding of his feelings and over reaction. That doesn’t mean he is found not guilty. Often it is not so clear and multiple reasons and failures have happened.
Sorry but I totally disagree. He kicked him in the head when he was unconscious. There is nothing ‘understandable’ in that action. That’s after using the taser for six times the recommended time and while his girlfriend was busily beating Atkinson with a baton, again while he was unconscious.

Understanding and mitigation only goes so far and there is no excuse for what happened in my view.
 
I am not in anyway condoning his actions. He was an experienced officer who has been carrying a taser for many years. It is likely that he has used the taser several times. He has probably tasered people who continue to attack after five seconds on numerous occasions. What is taught procedure and street practice is different. What does a policeman do when they are being attacked and the taught procedure of 5 second taser does nothing. Another 5 second taser does nothing.

suggest you put yourself in that PC’s shoes. What do you do? DA has attacked his father repeatedly, smashed property, stated he has killed both his brothers and is now coming for you. The equipment you have is shown not to work. I would suggest your actions are likely to be extreme. In this case, way over the line but we put people in these situations so can only expect extreme responses. His actions are unexcusable but understandable. There has to be some understanding of his feelings and over reaction. That doesn’t mean he is found not guilty. Often it is not so clear and multiple reasons and failures have happened.

Police are fallible, and we should be understanding of that because we all are but similarly there is a level of conduct and professionalism that we have a right to expect from them.

Presuming the eye witness testimony is correct the tazer had ultimately worked and he still chose to kick an unconscious man. That crosses a line into manslaughter at the very least.

As for the length of discharge, that's one for experts. YouTube videos are not experts. The difference between 5 seconds and 30 is vast.
 
Police are fallible, and we should be understanding of that because we all are but similarly there is a level of conduct and professionalism that we have a right to expect from them.

Presuming the eye witness testimony is correct the tazer had ultimately worked and he still chose to kick an unconscious man. That crosses a line into manslaughter at the very least.

As for the length of discharge, that's one for experts. YouTube videos are not experts. The difference between 5 seconds and 30 is vast.

I agree.
 
The only problem with that is that the third hit dropped Atkinson pretty much instantly. The officer held it on anyway.

The maximum recommended time is 5 seconds per ‘hit’ as any more can have potentially lethal consequences. Dalian Atkinson was effectively being electrocuted for over six times the recommended limit. Then he was kicked in the head.

They had called for backup and that backup is actually testifying against them which when the normal accusation is of police officers closing ranks is pretty telling.

I fully accept that they are allowed to present a defence. I am just unsure as to what that defence could possibly be.

The trial is expected to last about eight weeks from what little I've read about it. I guess they must have found something to dispute/talk about !
 
The trial is expected to last about eight weeks from what little I've read about it. I guess they must have found something to dispute/talk about !
They are disputing whether the force used was reasonable in the circumstances. They are not disputing that the taser was used for 33 seconds. Nor are they disputing that the female officer beat him with a baton and the male officer kicked him in the head, both after they are down.

They are both saying that in the heat of the moment they did not believe he was fully subdued which is why they did what they did and that they believe what they did was reasonable.

That is the purpose of the eye-witness testimony which, from the reports, is indicating that everyone else involved including the police backup who had arrived on scene believed he had been fully subdued and there was no need for any further physical intervention or extended use of the taser.
 
Completely agree. I can see a case for manslaughter but imo this is murder. Kicking someone as the witness describes is not reasonable anything.

There have been cases where gangs have kicked people on the head hundreds of times and been cleared of murder. Kicking someone on the head is clearly wrong (unless you believe your life is in serious danger), but doesn't usually kill someone or lead to a murder conviction. The murder case is far more likely to revolve around the taser use.
 
He has been found guilty of manslaughter - unanimous decision. First time a copper has been found guilty of manslaughter or murder in England/Wales since the 80s.
 
The only problem with that is that the third hit dropped Atkinson pretty much instantly. The officer held it on anyway.

The maximum recommended time is 5 seconds per ‘hit’ as any more can have potentially lethal consequences. Dalian Atkinson was effectively being electrocuted for over six times the recommended limit. Then he was kicked in the head.

They had called for backup and that backup is actually testifying against them which when the normal accusation is of police officers closing ranks is pretty telling.

I fully accept that they are allowed to present a defence. I am just unsure as to what that defence could possibly be.

There is no defence, it is indefensible.