Dalian Atkinson Murder Trial | Vital Football

Dalian Atkinson Murder Trial

Why?

Not saying there can be any justification, but I don't get why this copper would explode into such violence? What he did was surely with the intention of inflicting possibly fatal harm- you could only do that to someone that you really hated and really wanted to hurt. So.... Why? I don't get it.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Why?

Not saying there can be any justification, but I don't get why this copper would explode into such violence? What he did was surely with the intention of inflicting possibly fatal harm- you could only do that to someone that you really hated and really wanted to hurt. So.... Why? I don't get it.
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And that’s the problem. The prosecution has suggested that the fact the officers were intimidated and then actually scared prompted them to react so violently.

My first question would be whether either or both officers have had any violent incidents in their past service.

I am loathe to instantly jump to the conclusion that it was racially motivated but it certainly has to be considered.
 
Basha73 said:
And that’s the problem. The prosecution has suggested that the fact the officers were intimidated and then actually scared prompted them to react so violently.

My first question would be whether either or both officers have had any violent incidents in their past service.

I am loathe to instantly jump to the conclusion that it was racially motivated but it certainly has to be considered.
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I wouldn't doubt that there is a racial aspect to it, as I can't see him doing this to a white man- but I can't see that level of violence being an outright racist only attack- only because someone who hated black people enough for that level of violence would surely have shown their true selves enough to be sacked already.

Maybe I'm being naive but I just can't see British police getting away with the kinds of things American police do, at least not widely.

"Intimidation" is bullshit. That action is vengeful, angry and hate filled.
 
Basha73 said:
And that’s the problem. The prosecution has suggested that the fact the officers were intimidated and then actually scared prompted them to react so violently.

My first question would be whether either or both officers have had any violent incidents in their past service.

I am loathe to instantly jump to the conclusion that it was racially motivated but it certainly has to be considered.
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Bham city fans? Either way taser usage doesnt seem right but absolutely sure kicking an unconscious person in the head; twice!! Is murder. It was murder in the case of floyd and if that account is true then it is murder in this case.

He died in 2016 ish why so long!!
 
Pope John XXIII said:
I wouldn't doubt that there is a racial aspect to it, as I can't see him doing this to a white man- but I can't see that level of violence being an outright racist only attack- only because someone who hated black people enough for that level of violence would surely have shown their true selves enough to be sacked already.

Maybe I'm being naive but I just can't see British police getting away with the kinds of things American police do, at least not widely.

"Intimidation" is bullshit. That action is vengeful, angry and hate filled.
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That’s certainly how I see it but the prosecution are currently using the ‘anger at being intimidated’ angle so I can only guess that there is nothing in their history to support an immediate assertion of racism.

There is definitely rage there at a minimum and the fact that the wpc who was his girlfriend was also busily setting about Atkinson with her baton at the same time...

It’s also very interesting to note that other police officers who arrived as backup are testifying against the defendants.
 
radfordinlondon said:
Bham city fans? Either way taser usage doesnt seem right but absolutely sure kicking an unconscious person in the head; twice!! Is murder. It was murder in the case of floyd and if that account is true then it is murder in this case.

He died in 2016 ish why so long!!
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Building the case then COVID. Am guessing there will also have been plea deals offered and rejected.
 
Basha73 said:
That’s certainly how I see it but the prosecution are currently using the ‘anger at being intimidated’ angle so I can only guess that there is nothing in their history to support an immediate assertion of racism.

There is definitely rage there at a minimum and the fact that the wpc who was his girlfriend was also busily setting about Atkinson with her baton at the same time...

It’s also very interesting to note that other police officers who arrived as backup are testifying against the defendants.
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Wait a minute

The PC and WPC were attending the same incident together and were in a relationship?

What the fuck?

How can that be in the manual?

I'm guessing you mean that "anger at intimidation" is their defence's angle. They are both fucked if that is their defence; it's clearly a bullshit and desperate one.

30 seconds is a long, long time. You can't see someone suffer for that length of time and still be "scared". But i still think if he was racist enough for the exclusive reason for doing that to be about race, he would have shown himself before now and probably not have been still in the force.

I wonder what the real reason was, and whether that could have been picked up earlier in psych evaluations
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Wait a minute

The PC and WPC were attending the same incident together and were in a relationship?

What the fuck?

How can that be in the manual?

I'm guessing you mean that "anger at intimidation" is their defence's angle. They are both fucked if that is their defence; it's clearly a bullshit and desperate one.

30 seconds is a long, long time. You can't see someone suffer for that length of time and still be "scared". But i still think if he was racist enough for the exclusive reason for doing that to be about race, he would have shown himself before now and probably not have been still in the force.

I wonder what the real reason was, and whether that could have been picked up earlier in psych evaluations
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No. The defence are pleading not guilty and that reasonable force was used. This despite the fact that the PC left an imprint of his laces in Atkinson’s head.

The prosecution are saying that up to the third use of the taser they have no issue but after that they went way beyond reasonable force. They are also saying that they can only presume that it was a reaction to being intimidated that they over-reacted.

It is as though they are trying to avoid any other assertion either because of lack of evidence or because they are trying to avoid it being turned into a race issue (regardless of whether it is).
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Wait a minute

The PC and WPC were attending the same incident together and were in a relationship?

What the fuck?

How can that be in the manual?

I'm guessing you mean that "anger at intimidation" is their defence's angle. They are both fucked if that is their defence; it's clearly a bullshit and desperate one.

30 seconds is a long, long time. You can't see someone suffer for that length of time and still be "scared". But i still think if he was racist enough for the exclusive reason for doing that to be about race, he would have shown himself before now and probably not have been still in the force.

I wonder what the real reason was, and whether that could have been picked up earlier in psych evaluations
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there are some very good police I’m sure somewhere. There is also a great many terrible ones, I wouldn’t do it for the money they get it’s a shit thankless job & will therefore attract people on a power trip or who can’t get a better job. I’m sure loads of people on here have been hassled by police at football in ways that if it was done in everyday life would see police sacked.

I’m in no way saying that is anyway comparable with racism as it isn’t but it shows how bad the police can be given half a chance .

let’s say only 10% of the police are racist that’s pretty much 13000 racist police across the U.K. even if it’s only 5% that’s still 6500
 
Basha73 said:
Building the case then COVID. Am guessing there will also have been plea deals offered and rejected.
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Its a long time bash. Forensics should have taken no more than a week. Pathologist report in perhaps a month if they didnt rush it. Covid is 18months. I guess you do want to be sure in these cases but i certainly dont detect any urgency; when police person kicks someone to death, that should rate as an immediate priority.
 
radfordinlondon said:
Its a long time bash. Forensics should have taken no more than a week. Pathologist report in perhaps a month if they didnt rush it. Covid is 18months. I guess you do want to be sure in these cases but i certainly dont detect any urgency; when police person kicks someone to death, that should rate as an immediate priority.
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I actually think the contrary. In a case like this they need to be 100% sure that the case is rock solid. The last thing they need is accusations of a cover up etc.
 
The reason for the delay in bringing this to trial is that there will have been a variety of investigations, by a variety of people, and some of those investigators are slow. Since Dalian Atkinson died, the coroner is involved. Since Dalian Atkinson died at the hands of police officers, the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) is involved. The coroner will have had to decide which invesigations proceed first and ordinarily in a case with the IOPC involved, would wait for that. IOPC investigations always take a long time and in this case, will have culminated in a referral to the Crown Prosecution Service for consideration of criminal charges, which required further thought and evaluation. In a case such as this where police officers have been charged with murder, they will have taken advice from very senior criminal QCs as to what charges are supported by the evidence. All of that process is also overlain by covid slowing everybody up. So that is why it is taking a long time to get to trial. In fact, it is fair to say that many coroners' inquests take a long time to be heard, and this case is more complex than most. It is right that it is headline news: although, sadly, a disproportionate number of black people die at the hands of the police, the number of prosecutions for manslaughter, let alone murder, is tiny. It is a very, very long time since any police officer was actually convicted for killing someone that they were dealing with in the course of their duties. There is, and ought to be, a lot riding on this trial.
 
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chandos9 said:
The reason for the delay in bringing this to trial is that there will have been a variety of investigations, by a variety of people, and some of those investigators are slow. Since Dalian Atkinson died, the coroner is involved. Since Dalian Atkinson died at the hands of police officers, the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) is involved. The coroner will have had to decide which invesigations proceed first and ordinarily in a case with the IOPC involved, would wait for that. IOPC investigations always take a long time and in this case, will have culminated in a referral to the Crown Prosecution Service for consideration of criminal charges, which required further thought and evaluation. In a case such as this where police officers have been charged with murder, they will have taken advice from very senior criminal QCs as to what charges are supported by the evidence. All of that process is also overlain by covid slowing everybody up. So that is why it is taking a long time to get to trial. In fact, it is fair to say that many coroners' inquests take a long time to be heard, and this case is more complex than most. It is right that it is headline news: although, sadly, a disproportionate number of black people die at the hands of the police, the number of prosecutions for manslaughter, let alone murder, is tiny. It is a very, very long time since any police officer was actually convicted for killing someone that they were dealing with in the course of their duties. There is, and ought to be, a lot riding on this trial.
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Iopc, enough said. That is the likely delay imo

Some complex coroner's cases take a long time because the evidence is hard to get, others because of political feet dragging (Afghanistan anyone?).

Whether it is a white women abducted and killed or a black footballer, police are there to protect the public. Incidents like this need to be throughly thoroughly addressed as quickly as possible.

Most serving police officers will be appalled and angry about this as it does them a massive disservice.
 
I'm glad the people on here aren't on the jury ! My wife did jury service, and unfortunately got a child abuse case. One woman in the jury panel said she had been abused, so the bloke had done it, without even listening to the evidence ! Fortunately she didn't make the final jury.

I don't know much about this case, but it's nothing like the George Floyd case. Floyd hadn't committed any violence. Dalian Atkinson allegedly tried to kill his father. No idea what he did after the police arrived. Sounds very dodgy police action, but we haven't actually heard any defence evidence . Did the first two tasers fail to fire/miss, or did Atkinson just keep coming at them ? My understanding is that the prosecution have said they were "angered" by his behaviour. Not sure there have been any allegations of racism ? Doesn't condone any actions, but I do have more sympathy for an angry response if they believed their lives had been/still were under threat than Chauvin who had no reason whatsoever for what he did. Guess the trial will decide if it actually was a murder or not.
 
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