Crystal Palace v Tottenham Sat 11th Sept match thread.

[Gary Onedaysoon]

For all of Jose's faults he got this one right, too bad Levy and the board stuck their heels otherwise we would have had the cash to spend for a player like Neves and a striker from the sales of Ndombele and Dele.

Now we're stuck expecting that another manager could ignite the fat bastards desire to play football, instead of having motivation coming from within him.

He was overweight in his first season. He looked okay last season. There's a new slimline version this season.

 

[pjones40]

I have been waiting and waiting for any of our senior players to come out and explain there performance on Saturday. I have been speaking to friends and normally it's good having a discussion with us having different opinions. On this though we agree. Our senior pros are being gutless letting Skipp post match interview. Unless we have missed a interview. I have never been in a dressing room where we send a young player out. It was always a senior player. That's not a older player that's a player with a few seasons under his belt. I know on the day there were some very angry unhappy players but we all play for the club and its supporters who without we are just men having a kick about. Have some guts and take the flack. The only reason for them to not do this apart from being gutless is that the club did not like the answers they would give. I have been in dressing rooms in which players disagree with the coach and tactics and have to be hushed.

 

[Nick Real Deal]

Skipp is mature beyond his years and was brutally honest in admitting they were sloppy and there is lots of work to do regardless of previous results so far.
I don't know how it works in picking a spokesman for the team these days. But fair play to him, it wasn't easy.

 

[pjones40]

Skipp is mature beyond his years and was brutally honest in admitting they were sloppy and there is lots of work to do regardless of previous results so far.
I don't know how it works in picking a spokesman for the team these days. But fair play to him, it wasn't easy.

He should not have been the only one. It's a cop out by our senior players. Unless they have been told not to.

 

[muttley]

I'd agree with everything except the players' response to the Moura foul.

Yes, it was clearly a foul but Moss waved play on, so the players have to play to the whistle.

You can't have PEH standing there waving his arms watching the play go by him.

And Tanga was equally at fault. We had plenty of cover. Get the ball out of play or safe. Make sure Moura stays down. And then deal with Moss. Make sure the focus is on his mistake.

I'm confused. We never had the ball. How does Japhet get the ball out of play?

I actually quite liked the fact that Japhet took the yellow and then fronted it out with Zaha. He almost picked him up and took him 10 yards backwards. Zaha knew it as well and wasn't going to mess with our man. He was glad to see the rest of them pile in to get him out of it. Perhaps we finally have a hard man at the club rather than pretend ones like Hojbjerg who spend more time rolling around the floor than actually being hard.

Also, whilst it was a foul by Gallagher, it was good anticipation. He knew Moura was in a bad position and switching on too late (again). Had Moura immediately come towards Pierre then the pass would have been completed easily. He didn't, he lost half a second in his head again. These things are subtle in football but you'll do well to get our best players on a football wavelength with guys like Hojbjerg and Lucas. You can see that same position with elite players like Eriksen and Son back in the day almost leading to a goal. As I say, it's subtle.

The worst part of it was that whilst there was no intent by Gallagher, he got the ball and not the man. Moss is experienced enough to know that was our foul. His agenda was the biggest problem here and he needs to just disappear from top level refereeing. Too much controversy follows him.

 

[10Hoddle]

When you understand the hating on Dele, perhaps you can explain it to me. It's one big bandwagon on the match day threads right now. I did have a little chuckle at the weekend when every time Moura run into a cul-de-sac or misplaced his pass, nothing was written on here. The moment Dele misplaced a pass, he was berated by all quarters.

We do need more from Dele though.

Also, we need Nuno to find a system that suits our better players. We can all fill a team with water carriers but we need Nuno to change. He either has to decide to formally play a 2 man pivot and put the guys into a 4-2-3-1 or he needs to accomodate one shirt for Skipp and Hojbjerg.

Nuno or Fabio also need to sit down with Kane and share some video analysis with him. Make him fully aware that every member of the coaching staff and every fan can see his pathetic effort levels. It's not fair to anyone that he is getting away with it. I'd be tempted to put him back into pre-season mode and get him fully fit. Tell him he'll play again in a few weeks when he is ready.

The footballers among us will realize that there is more to missed passes than meets the eye. Don't get me wrong. I constantly count the mis passes with my youngest sons team (15 y.o) in the National Premier League, and report back to the coach. Mostly this is a consequence of poor off the ball movement and taking too long to make the pass, meaning your options have been closed down.

There's a great player within Dele. We should have the means to extract it, counsel and get the best from him.

 

[Gary Onedaysoon]

I'm confused. We never had the ball. How does Japhet get the ball out of play?

I actually quite liked the fact that Japhet took the yellow and then fronted it out with Zaha. He almost picked him up and took him 10 yards backwards. Zaha knew it as well and wasn't going to mess with our man. He was glad to see the rest of them pile in to get him out of it. Perhaps we finally have a hard man at the club rather than pretend ones like Hojbjerg who spend more time rolling around the floor than actually being hard.

Also, whilst it was a foul by Gallagher, it was good anticipation. He knew Moura was in a bad position and switching on too late (again). Had Moura immediately come towards Pierre then the pass would have been completed easily. He didn't, he lost half a second in his head again. These things are subtle in football but you'll do well to get our best players on a football wavelength with guys like Hojbjerg and Lucas. You can see that same position with elite players like Eriksen and Son back in the day almost leading to a goal. As I say, it's subtle.

The worst part of it was that whilst there was no intent by Gallagher, he got the ball and not the man. Moss is experienced enough to know that was our foul. His agenda was the biggest problem here and he needs to just disappear from top level refereeing. Too much controversy follows him.

What I meant was close down Zaha until as such time that we regained the ball or it went out for play. We had the numbers and the shape. Meanwhile keep Moura on the floor and then surround Moss. Make the focus on Moss's mistake not Tanaga's loss of control which it became.

I have no problem whatsoever with Tanga's aggression but that wasn't the way to show it. He saw the red mist and lost control. That carried over into the tackle that saw him sent off. He may have pulled out at the last moment but it was still reckless in the context and it was a carryover from what went on previously.

As to the free kick on Moura, I really don't know whether Moss had an agenda. You may be right. I try not to be judgemental on referees on those 50/50 split second decisions. What appears apparent to the naked eye in real time often looks different in the Slo-mo.

But whether Moss had an agenda or not, whether he ignored what he knew was a genuine free kick or not, you don't stop playing like PEH did or respond in the way Tanga did.

I don't want to go back to the days when referees automatically stopped play when players fell down, feigning injury to prevent counter attacks. It's no different to the so-called tactical foul used so effectively by City and others to prevent the opposition breaking. So in that context we have to allow referees to make snap judgements even if there are more errors as a consequence. But that's a personal choice.

 

[RichmondSpur]

The footballers among us will realize that there is more to missed passes than meets the eye. Don't get me wrong. I constantly count the mis passes with my youngest sons team (15 y.o) in the National Premier League, and report back to the coach. Mostly this is a consequence of poor off the ball movement and taking too long to make the pass, meaning your options have been closed down.

There's a great player within Dele. We should have the means to extract it, counsel and get the best from him.

More excuses for Dele Alli being shite on the football pitch; other players are to blame, never his wastefulness in possession. The footballers among us will know if the pass isn't on, hold onto the ball and protect it. Forcing passes to be read and intercepted, or poorly directed as almost all of Alli's were, is errant in judgment and execution. When your bar is as low as Alli's and being so limited in possession, regularly giving the ball away is a constant for him.

 

[Critical_Spur]

I have no problem whatsoever with Tanga's aggression but that wasn't the way to show it. He saw the red mist and lost control. That carried over into the tackle that saw him sent off. He may have pulled out at the last moment but it was still reckless in the context and it was a carryover from what went on previously.

He showed that trait v City. TBH, he was lucky in that game and it worried me a little then. Hopefully he'll mature quite quickly. Rose used to be fiery too but managed it better imo.

 

[Real Deal]

The sad thing is that this is a very good side:

Lloris; Tanganga, Romero, Sanchez, Reggie, Hojbjerg, Ndombele, Gio, Dele, Son, Kane

You've got 2 midfielders in Gio and Ndombele that are in their 3rd season and can't get going. Reggie has regressed because of our negative football whilst Dele hasn't rediscovered his prior form. Hojbjerg is now going the same direction after a promising start. Then we have Kane who doesn't seem to give a shit. Even Tanganga can never get a run of 5 games together without injury and now obviously suspension.

I can't imagine what the team could be like in the right system and with the right mentality. It would still be short of our 2017 team, but wouldn't look like the absolute chasm we're seeing now.

Nuno will never try that team. He is far to defensive for that.

I thought Levy said our next appointment would go back to our DNA?

I would have Gil in there over one of Dele, Ndombele and lo Celso.

 

[Real Deal]

Maybe Nuno should grow a pair. This isn't Wolves. We want to naffing win.

I liked what I saw in pre season but the more time goes on I think Nuno was the wrong appointment.

He is just to negative. I can't see that changing.

The way he has let Kane get his way is another indication he isn't the man we need.

 

[Real Deal]

I'm confused. We never had the ball. How does Japhet get the ball out of play?

I actually quite liked the fact that Japhet took the yellow and then fronted it out with Zaha. He almost picked him up and took him 10 yards backwards. Zaha knew it as well and wasn't going to mess with our man. He was glad to see the rest of them pile in to get him out of it. Perhaps we finally have a hard man at the club rather than pretend ones like Hojbjerg who spend more time rolling around the floor than actually being hard.

Also, whilst it was a foul by Gallagher, it was good anticipation. He knew Moura was in a bad position and switching on too late (again). Had Moura immediately come towards Pierre then the pass would have been completed easily. He didn't, he lost half a second in his head again. These things are subtle in football but you'll do well to get our best players on a football wavelength with guys like Hojbjerg and Lucas. You can see that same position with elite players like Eriksen and Son back in the day almost leading to a goal. As I say, it's subtle.

The worst part of it was that whilst there was no intent by Gallagher, he got the ball and not the man. Moss is experienced enough to know that was our foul. His agenda was the biggest problem here and he needs to just disappear from top level refereeing. Too much controversy follows him.

I didn't have a problem with Tangangas yellow either. Zaha is a prick and needed taking out.

The 2nd was silly but he clearly tried to pull out last second.

I like the way Tanganga bullies players.

Tanganga is our best RB for me.

 

[muttley]

The footballers among us will realize that there is more to missed passes than meets the eye. Don't get me wrong. I constantly count the mis passes with my youngest sons team (15 y.o) in the National Premier League, and report back to the coach. Mostly this is a consequence of poor off the ball movement and taking too long to make the pass, meaning your options have been closed down.

There's a great player within Dele. We should have the means to extract it, counsel and get the best from him.

You're dead right in that it is the off the ball movement that makes football easier. It's been missing from Spurs for a few years now. Ironically, one of the most intelligent at it is Dele. He is now the one in the deeper position trying to play the pass. His previous role was either receiving the pass or via his movement creating holes for the others to receive the ball easier. He is the best in the business at the latter and how he made his name.

 

[muttley]

What I meant was close down Zaha until as such time that we regained the ball or it went out for play. We had the numbers and the shape. Meanwhile keep Moura on the floor and then surround Moss. Make the focus on Moss's mistake not Tanaga's loss of control which it became.

I have no problem whatsoever with Tanga's aggression but that wasn't the way to show it. He saw the red mist and lost control. That carried over into the tackle that saw him sent off. He may have pulled out at the last moment but it was still reckless in the context and it was a carryover from what went on previously.

As to the free kick on Moura, I really don't know whether Moss had an agenda. You may be right. I try not to be judgemental on referees on those 50/50 split second decisions. What appears apparent to the naked eye in real time often looks different in the Slo-mo.

But whether Moss had an agenda or not, whether he ignored what he knew was a genuine free kick or not, you don't stop playing like PEH did or respond in the way Tanga did.

I don't want to go back to the days when referees automatically stopped play when players fell down, feigning injury to prevent counter attacks. It's no different to the so-called tactical foul used so effectively by City and others to prevent the opposition breaking. So in that context we have to allow referees to make snap judgements even if there are more errors as a consequence. But that's a personal choice.

OK get your point now. Zaha had pushed that ball past Tanganga because of the open space that was left with the others. I'm not sure Tanganga would have recovered in that foot race. He might have been more subtle though and just tripped him.

As for Moss, look at his position in the Gallagher-Moura incident. No more than 5 yards with a clear view. He had an agenda, which was to follow a stupid FA directive to allow more aggression and keep the game flowing. Another example of a referee blatantly ignoring the rules. He basically called Moura a liar for feigning injury by not blowing his whistle.

 

[SmithAndJones]

I can't quite understand the 'free ride' that Tanganga has been getting on here. Firstly I must stress that I rate him highly, and genuinely believe that he and Rodon could develop into an excellent PL CB pairing. That doesn't alter the fact however that he acted like a complete prat on Saturday, got what he deserved, and he more than any other player was ultimately responsible for us taking a bad beating. I'm all in favour of our players shedding the perceived soft touch image, but not by acting like undisciplined head cases. Others will have his card marked now, and he's going to have to learn how to discipline himself very quickly.

 

[Gary Onedaysoon]

OK get your point now. Zaha had pushed that ball past Tanganga because of the open space that was left with the others. I'm not sure Tanganga would have recovered in that foot race. He might have been more subtle though and just tripped him.

As for Moss, look at his position in the Gallagher-Moura incident. No more than 5 yards with a clear view. He had an agenda, which was to follow a stupid FA directive to allow more aggression and keep the game flowing. Another example of a referee blatantly ignoring the rules. He basically called Moura a liar for feigning injury by not blowing his whistle.

I thought you meant an agenda against Spurs rather than following the FA's directive.

What I would say in their defence is that they trying to negate the tactic of players feigning injury to prevent a counter attack. Clearly that directive doesn't include foul play but some decisions are genuinely hard to call. I'm not saying Moss was right on this.

This whole area is a problem though. The directive is clear: the referee has to blow for head injuries but makes a judgement call on other injuries.

The players though are still playing to the old rules. At times they are making the decision themselves on whether to put the ball out of play. That creates uncertainty on what the 'etiquette' is now. Hence you get anger when, rightly or wrongly, one team plays to the whistle whilst an opponent is on the floor.

 

[Gary Onedaysoon]

You're dead right in that it is the off the ball movement that makes football easier. It's been missing from Spurs for a few years now. Ironically, one of the most intelligent at it is Dele. He is now the one in the deeper position trying to play the pass. His previous role was either receiving the pass or via his movement creating holes for the others to receive the ball easier. He is the best in the business at the latter and how he made his name.

This is the thing that seems to be overlooked with Dele. The contrast between the role he excelled at and the role he's being asked to play now.

He's a predominantly right-footed player but being asked to play on the left of a midfield 3. He has normal midfield duties, a responsibility to support Reggie but he's also expected to join the attack. More than any other player he is out of his natural position and the physical expectations and demands on him are greater than any other player.

Technically, he has a couple of gears to go up, but it's difficult to attain technical excellence when you're busting a gut getting up and down the pitch continuously.

He still had it in him though to win and convert the penalty to gain us three points against Wolves.

 

[muttley]

I thought you meant an agenda against Spurs rather than following the FA's directive.

What I would say in their defence is that they trying to negate the tactic of players feigning injury to prevent a counter attack. Clearly that directive doesn't include foul play but some decisions are genuinely hard to call. I'm not saying Moss was right on this.

This whole area is a problem though. The directive is clear: the referee has to blow for head injuries but makes a judgement call on other injuries.

The players though are still playing to the old rules. At times they are making the decision themselves on whether to put the ball out of play. That creates uncertainty on what the 'etiquette' is now. Hence you get anger when, rightly or wrongly, one team plays to the whistle whilst an opponent is on the floor.

Yeah, get the natural balance between the player pretending to be hurt and buying fouls versus the tactical or professional fouler. We are now at the point where the game is over-rotated to the former and the latter is the one gaining the advantage.

But the constant is the head rule ruling you mention. That is in its 3rd or 4th season yet players still want the ball kicked out for anything. Play to the whistle.

 

[muttley]

This is the thing that seems to be overlooked with Dele. The contrast between the role he excelled at and the role he's being asked to play now.

He's a predominantly right-footed player but being asked to play on the left of a midfield 3. He has normal midfield duties, a responsibility to support Reggie but he's also expected to join the attack. More than any other player he is out of his natural position and the physical expectations and demands on him are greater than any other player.

Technically, he has a couple of gears to go up, but it's difficult to attain technical excellence when you're busting a gut getting up and down the pitch continuously.

He still had it in him though to win and convert the penalty to gain us three points against Wolves.

Yep, imagine Dele in Hojbjerg's position.

 

[Spursex]

I have been waiting and waiting for any of our senior players to come out and explain there performance on Saturday. I have been speaking to friends and normally it's good having a discussion with us having different opinions. On this though we agree. Our senior pros are being gutless letting Skipp post match interview. Unless we have missed a interview. I have never been in a dressing room where we send a young player out. It was always a senior player. That's not a older player that's a player with a few seasons under his belt. I know on the day there were some very angry unhappy players but we all play for the club and its supporters who without we are just men having a kick about. Have some guts and take the flack. The only reason for them to not do this apart from being gutless is that the club did not like the answers they would give. I have been in dressing rooms in which players disagree with the coach and tactics and have to be hushed.

The players don't 'send' anyone out - the request for a named player post-match is made by the media company; then our media man asks the coach if he's happy to let the player they requested to do it.