#COVID19 | Page 976 | Vital Football

#COVID19

Lienking said:
You really are a nasty piece of work. Of course I care more about the under 40s than I do about myself. My kids are both under 40 , so why would I not care about them ? Your post is yet another one criticising our government . Of course despite the fact the EU is stopping orders placed three months before theirs, there is not a word of criticism about them, despite the fact they could be stopping YOUR jab. Unlike you I don't pretend to know everything that is going on in the world, but what IF the EU has told Boris there will be no second Pfizer jabs unless he gives the EU the AZ . What if the Guardian story isn't right ? We have millions of vaccine orders. Is it our governments fault AZ and Pfizer are behind, Johnson and Johnson messed up, and the French bunch still haven't got anything that works yet.

I couldn't care less about the vaccine passports , which I didn't even mention. Is it really that difficult to stick a swab in your mouth for 10 seconds to get a night out, not that I really agree with them anyhow.
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Here comes the abuse. It's easy to accuse others of this, but it seems it's a bit harder to stop yourself.

Every major country and producer in the world has prioritised its own production. The USA has done so, exporting Moderna and Pfizer only where their own supply is secure; the reason we have put so much stock in AZ is due to the assumption that Trump would stop all exports completely if he won the election.

India's AZ factory is now closed to us; they have a spike and will no longer allow exports to the UK, regardless of AZ's contractual obligations.

And of course the UK has, to my knowledge, exported fuck all to nowhere Vis a vis the vaccine stock produced here.

So your pathological hatred of the EU is out of place in this discussion; you are blaming them for doing what three other major powers, including ourselves, have already been doing.

My post is about our government; you know, the one you voted for and i didn't. Because they have set a target and, based on what is in all the media (not just the Guardian) I am struggling to see how that commitment is going to be met.

Here is the evidence;

1) NHS letter to centres, stating that all new vaccinations outside of the first 9 groups be stopped completely until at least the end of April due to lack of new vaccine. You would only do this if existing stocks were needed to fulfill second doses.

What we don't know is how much stock we currently have and whether we can meet those second doses or not; I am going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume we can. But what we absolutely do know is that the current stocks are not sufficient to even start the under 50's, or they would be doing so.

2) SAGE report claiming that vaccinations rates would be significantly reduced to 2.4m -2.7m per day for months; this includes second doses. That would mean a few hundred thousand (at best) group 10's being done per week. This is not a capacity issue but a vaccine availability issue. There are 7m 40-49's; at a few hundred thousands a week, you are talking 3-6 months to do group 10; even the optimistic reading of that takes us past the July target just for the 40-49 group.

3) The Indian factory for AZ is closed to us

4) Yields from the Oxford and Keele AZ plants have dropped significantly recently; this happens. It is unlikely that they will be able to meet the demand of 25m under 50's (or even the 14m 30-49's who can have the AZ vaccine) in the near future unless that situation suddenly changes.

5) Johnson made a big play of negotiating with the EU over the Dutch plant that we supposedly (although this is being denied now) put a lot of money into. His proposal was 50/50. That alone would massively slow down the UK vaccine programme, given that factory's yields haven't been the best anyway. According to this article (which you are free to dismiss), the final deal he got (despite Varadkar's support) seems to have been 0/100. Great negotiating if true.

6) Novovax is coming and will be made in the UK.- in fact, it already is being. When will we get that? It hasn't been approved yet, and it takes weeks to set up production and months to produce a reasonable yield. We have a head start on that, but I personally see little chance that Novovax can come to the rescue of Johnson's July target

7) The Janssen one dose vaccine is not approved yet either. This one has also had significant concerns over blood clots by the EU. We have 30m ordered of this and it will be produced in Stockton on Tees. This is in the preliminary stages; what are the chances of it being available by the end of July?

This is my evidence, not that you will read it. I am happy to be proved wrong, but from what I can see the July target is already dead in the water.

My point is that it is all well and good you sitting there with a vaccine in your arm (and I'm sure you have already said your children have been vaccinated too) telling people who are not vaccinated and face significant discrimination (I may not be able to attend the British Grand Prix, that I paid for a year ago) to "wait and see", as you always do. But if people of your demographic actually flexed your political muscles and asked the kind of questions I'm asking, you wouldn't be ignored by the media as the under 50's are; this government would listen, would shit themselves that their popularity was waning and would front up with us all.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Here comes the abuse. It's easy to accuse others of this, but it seems it's a bit harder to stop yourself.

Every major country and producer in the world has prioritised its own production. The USA has done so, exporting Moderna and Pfizer only where their own supply is secure; the reason we have put so much stock in AZ is due to the assumption that Trump would stop all exports completely if he won the election.

India's AZ factory is now closed to us; they have a spike and will no longer allow exports to the UK, regardless of AZ's contractual obligations.

And of course the UK has, to my knowledge, exported fuck all to nowhere Vis a vis the vaccine stock produced here.

So your pathological hatred of the EU is out of place in this discussion; you are blaming them for doing what three other major powers, including ourselves, have already been doing.

My post is about our government; you know, the one you voted for and i didn't. Because they have set a target and, based on what is in all the media (not just the Guardian) I am struggling to see how that commitment is going to be met.

Here is the evidence;

1) NHS letter to centres, stating that all new vaccinations outside of the first 9 groups be stopped completely until at least the end of April due to lack of new vaccine. You would only do this if existing stocks were needed to fulfill second doses.

What we don't know is how much stock we currently have and whether we can meet those second doses or not; I am going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume we can. But what we absolutely do know is that the current stocks are not sufficient to even start the under 50's, or they would be doing so.

2) SAGE report claiming that vaccinations rates would be significantly reduced to 2.4m -2.7m per day for months; this includes second doses. That would mean a few hundred thousand (at best) group 10's being done per week. This is not a capacity issue but a vaccine availability issue. There are 7m 40-49's; at a few hundred thousands a week, you are talking 3-6 months to do group 10; even the optimistic reading of that takes us past the July target just for the 40-49 group.

3) The Indian factory for AZ is closed to us

4) Yields from the Oxford and Keele AZ plants have dropped significantly recently; this happens. It is unlikely that they will be able to meet the demand of 25m under 50's (or even the 14m 30-49's who can have the AZ vaccine) in the near future unless that situation suddenly changes.

5) Johnson made a big play of negotiating with the EU over the Dutch plant that we supposedly (although this is being denied now) put a lot of money into. His proposal was 50/50. That alone would massively slow down the UK vaccine programme, given that factory's yields haven't been the best anyway. According to this article (which you are free to dismiss), the final deal he got (despite Varadkar's support) seems to have been 0/100. Great negotiating if true.

6) Novovax is coming and will be made in the UK.- in fact, it already is being. When will we get that? It hasn't been approved yet, and it takes weeks to set up production and months to produce a reasonable yield. We have a head start on that, but I personally see little chance that Novovax can come to the rescue of Johnson's July target

7) The Janssen one dose vaccine is not approved yet either. This one has also had significant concerns over blood clots by the EU. We have 30m ordered of this and it will be produced in Stockton on Tees. This is in the preliminary stages; what are the chances of it being available by the end of July?

This is my evidence, not that you will read it. I am happy to be proved wrong, but from what I can see the July target is already dead in the water.

My point is that it is all well and good you sitting there with a vaccine in your arm (and I'm sure you have already said your children have been vaccinated too) telling people who are not vaccinated and face significant discrimination (I may not be able to attend the British Grand Prix, that I paid for a year ago) to "wait and see", as you always do. But if people of your demographic actually flexed your political muscles and asked the kind of questions I'm asking, you wouldn't be ignored by the media as the under 50's are; this government would listen, would shit themselves that their popularity was waning and would front up with us all.
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Wot a load of crap.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Thank you for your thoughtful, intelligent and informative response. You know how much value I put on your opinion and how much your contribution to these debates is always appreciated.

I will take your insightful points and ponder them
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Sarcastic reply popey we can always rely on your thoughtful insights, as usual everybody's wrong except you .oh deary me
 
U.K. has never made a statement whether it has or hasn’t exported vaccine’s. Unlike the EU which shouts a figure weekly. WHO figures suggest increasing numbers of vaccines to developing countries. Sydney Herald reported vaccines from U.K. in both Feb and March. Perhaps ORF knows more.
 
Polly 433 said:
U.K. has never made a statement whether it has or hasn’t exported vaccine’s. Unlike the EU which shouts a figure weekly. WHO figures suggest increasing numbers of vaccines to developing countries. Sydney Herald reported vaccines from U.K. in both Feb and March. Perhaps ORF knows more.
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You're right Polly, the thing that's pretty clear now is that the UK possibly wanted to keep this quiet at the time and for all I know that may not be the end of it.
It was a generous gesture at the time as we had already donated part of our stock to Papua New Guinea who are in a really rotten position.
We're doing a bit better here but I should have had my jab several weeks ago, I console myself with the knowledge that I'm in the same boat as Pope except for being in a different age bracket of course.
We're still short of vaccines but lucky that our controls are working well.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
You are perfectly fine to tell me I'm wrong and tell me how. That's what debating is. Go for it. Anyone can snipe from the sidelines
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Debates don't exist anymore, debates are when you both lay all the cards on the table and actually decide upon the correct decision. Nowadays its just blind allegience to a twitter feed someone read irrespective of facts or nuance lol
 
It seems that our pharma guys are actually selling the 'rights' to these vaccines so that the poorer countries can use them. So they aren't like open source. There are factories and labs ready to go but cannot have permission.
The poorer countries that can't afford these licences are offered all sorts of deals of course, access and ownership of their natural resources. Its the same trick we've been doing for centuries
 
paz1967 said:
Debates don't exist anymore, debates are when you both lay all the cards on the table and actually decide upon the correct decision. Nowadays its just blind allegience to a twitter feed someone read irrespective of facts or nuance lol
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I've had a few good debates with pope and others on here recently tbh. We both explained our positions and for me at least I felt like I learned some things.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...n-eu-says-brussels?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Boris lost to the EU it seems. Absolutely, totally and comprehensively. But Johnson doesn't mind that, as long as he lost quietly, and that is what has happened.

He proposed a 50/50 split with the Dutch factory. According to this, he has managed to achieve a 0/100 split in the EU's favour. Truly Trumpian in his negotiating skills.

The EU will have vaccinated 70% of adults by the time we "meet our target" of vaccinating all adults by 31st July.

But I don't believe that there is any possible chance we going to meet that target. I suspect the government knows this and is waiting for the right moment to bury the news; keep an eye out for Philip's funeral, when the hen-pecked BBC and the complicit right wing press won't dare talk about anything else, even if they gave a shit.

Because where are the final 45m doses coming from? We don't have them. We hope we have enough for second doses and I don't think that is guarenteed either.

We have only ordered 17m Moderna. The government has now committed that, plus whatever we have left from Pfizer, to the under 30's who will be last. The Janssen vaccine is unapproved, is months away, and is both shit AND potentially causes blood clots: so shit that I think I personally would refuse it.

The Indian AZ plant will not be producing any more for Britain for the foreseeable future and UK manufacturing, which doesn't really have the capacity to meet demand anyway, is grinding to a halt.

So where are the doses coming from Boris? And when are you going to admit that July isn't happening, neither will September? When will you be honest and upfront with the age demographic you least give a shit about that you have, once again, shafted them?
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no one has yet given an explanation why it is so critical to vaccinate the 20-49 age group given the tiny mortality and hospitalisation rates , the vaccinations seem to be working with the odd few casualties (which people seem to just accept as casualties of war) on the older/underlying condition cohorts and when we were previously told the plan was to vaccinate the most vulnerable.

And finally why is a death within 28 days of a positive covid test, covid whilst death within 28 days of a vaccine not vaccine related?

oh and finally finally, why won’t they give people an indemnity as a result of taking the vaccine?

no answers and nobody questioning.

are the vaccines just so short term in the vulnerable categories that the vulnerable categories will be very quickly vulnerable again?
 
toms said:
no one has yet given an explanation why it is so critical to vaccinate the 20-49 age group given the tiny mortality and hospitalisation rates , the vaccinations seem to be working with the odd few casualties (which people seem to just accept as casualties of war) on the older/underlying condition cohorts and when we were previously told the plan was to vaccinate the most vulnerable.

And finally why is a death within 28 days of a positive covid test, covid whilst death within 28 days of a vaccine not vaccine related?

oh and finally finally, why won’t they give people an indemnity as a result of taking the vaccine?

no answers and nobody questioning.

are the vaccines just so short term in the vulnerable categories that the vulnerable categories will be very quickly vulnerable again?
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Answers have been given on multiple occasions on this thread alone, that you don't listen is your business.
 
toms said:
no one has yet given an explanation why it is so critical to vaccinate the 20-49 age group given the tiny mortality and hospitalisation rates , the vaccinations seem to be working with the odd few casualties (which people seem to just accept as casualties of war) on the older/underlying condition cohorts and when we were previously told the plan was to vaccinate the most vulnerable.

And finally why is a death within 28 days of a positive covid test, covid whilst death within 28 days of a vaccine not vaccine related?

oh and finally finally, why won’t they give people an indemnity as a result of taking the vaccine?

no answers and nobody questioning.

are the vaccines just so short term in the vulnerable categories that the vulnerable categories will be very quickly vulnerable again?
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It's not all that tiny in those groups to be fair, especially once you get past 35. It depends on your view of tiny and how much importance you put on a death. Someone in their 70's is not going to have any non-adult dependents but a 30 something dying is liable to have a dependent family. The increased social consequence perhaps mitigates the unlikeliness?

My assumption though is that the whole adult vaccination programme is about cutting potential transmission rates; again, to support the vulnerable.

I am not aware of any deaths attributed to COVID following a reasonable period of immunity. I know people who have had vaccines have died, but I'm not aware that they have done so after a point where they should absolutely have been protected?
 
Old Red Fart said:
You're right Polly, the thing that's pretty clear now is that the UK possibly wanted to keep this quiet at the time and for all I know that may not be the end of it.
It was a generous gesture at the time as we had already donated part of our stock to Papua New Guinea who are in a really rotten position.
We're doing a bit better here but I should have had my jab several weeks ago, I console myself with the knowledge that I'm in the same boat as Pope except for being in a different age bracket of course.
We're still short of vaccines but lucky that our controls are working well.
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Why would they want to keep it quiet?

Could it be the total mixed messaging and or the game playing?
 
paz1967 said:
It seems that our pharma guys are actually selling the 'rights' to these vaccines so that the poorer countries can use them. So they aren't like open source. There are factories and labs ready to go but cannot have permission.
The poorer countries that can't afford these licences are offered all sorts of deals of course, access and ownership of their natural resources. Its the same trick we've been doing for centuries
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We could satisfy the free market of big pharma, and help those countries, and help ourselve, all at the same time by spending some of our foreign aid budget on it?

Oh.
 
Calvin Plummer said:
Answers have been given on multiple occasions on this thread alone, that you don't listen is your business.
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sorry I haven’t seen them. There are many pages to this thread. Pope is the first one who has attempted above that I have seen .

do the vaccines cut transmission then? I didn’t think that was proven
 
toms said:
sorry I haven’t seen them. There are many pages to this thread. Pope is the first one who has attempted above that I have seen .

do the vaccines cut transmission then? I didn’t think that was proven
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Evidence suggest that it does cut it by up to 50% is my understanding. I argued that 50% was kinda pointless but thats a perspective for sure
 
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