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#COVID19

Pope John XXIII said:
Ok, fair enough. I dont like being called racist, I would be worried about anyone who does but I accept that was not you

I don't actually disagree with any of that.

I traced my family in lockdown last year. I was hoping for some interesting stories, and what I got was a long line of brickmakers from Sleaford with a high child mortality rate. I can't trace back that far, but they would almost certainly have been serfs under the feudal system.

So no, it's not impossible that my family benefitted very indirectly from the slave trade through some pretty distant trickling down. But that can hardly be helped, and in reality my family had nothing at any time.

More importantly, the vast majority of the English population had no involvement in the slave trade and no agency to stop it. CP will say that is not good enough. I disagree. No one in my family had the ability to even vote until the 1880s reform act.

I don't believe it is wrong to question the extent of collective responsibiliy for evils committed by a regime in which a tiny elite ruled (MPs were not even paid until nearly the 20th century, ensuring only the elite could afford to be elected) and only a small portion of the population had any say in that.

I do not blame the Chinese population for what is happening to the Uighurs; what agency do they have? I have actually seen discrimination against the Uighurs in China with my own eyes, and the Chinese had no concept that it was discrimination. And why would they considering the information available to them?

I believe the same principal applies.

And finally, someone suggests a viable idea for his restitution could be done. I don't disagree with what you say there at all
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Agree, but there is one slight miscommunication remaining, probably because I haven't explained my point properly. I wasn't taking about ye olde brickmaking Pope family. If we are asking for protections or financial aid for Africa (in particular) from today's brits, it is important to recognise that we continue to profit today from what happened in the past.
 
Not trying whataboutery here, but I was called racist for even mentioning the Barbary Pirates and the slave trade of the Ottoman Empire which continued into the C20.

Would there be an ‘in the round’ discussion about any restitutions?

Leopold II of Belgium was doing his ‘work’ long after we’d abolished the trade, if I remember correctly ‘crimes against humanity’ was coined following his actions in Congo. Up to 15 million deaths!!!

Most importantly we learn and move forward.
 
in_the_top_one said:
Agree, but there is one slight miscommunication remaining, probably because I haven't explained my point properly. I wasn't taking about ye olde brickmaking Pope family. If we are asking for protections or financial aid for Africa (in particular) from today's brits, it is important to recognise that we continue to profit today from what happened in the past.
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Perhaps, but there needs to be certain statutes of limitations on that too.

I suggest that where we continue to profit from Africa (or India) through institutions originating in slavery/Empire (I cannot think of any specific examples) then reform is necessary and due.

I think a general "we are a rich country now only because of slavery/empire so we need to address that" is a nonsense. What is the solution? Be less rich? Mission accomplished via Brexit if that is all it is. Be less rich by giving money to our former colonies? We have been doing to an extent.

I just think in that sense the distance in time is too great, the variables too many. How do you quantify how much of our current living standard is due to slavery rather than the Spinning Jenny, Vaccines or the Marshall Plan?
 
Strett said:
Not trying whataboutery here, but I was called racist for even mentioning the Barbary Pirates and the slave trade of the Ottoman Empire which continued into the C20.

Would there be an ‘in the round’ discussion about any restitutions?

Leopold II of Belgium was doing his ‘work’ long after we’d abolished the trade, if I remember correctly ‘crimes against humanity’ was coined following his actions in Congo. Up to 15 million deaths!!!

Most importantly we learn and move forward.
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There are wildly different standards. The Spanish and Portuguese initiated their own style of holocaust in the mines of South America and the Caribbean. Yet this is not taught, it is not especially acknowledged in the west and i don't believe it is the cause of any particular introspection in Spain. I'm sure Turkey is a similar case.

Similarly, Japan is one of the most racist and xenophobic developed countries in the world. Yet the west ignores that or accepts that as their right and one not fit for us to question or criticise.

My point being that Britain does tend to hold itself to higher levels of introspection and responsibility for past actions than many other nations. I'm not saying that's a bad thing
 
da fuq said:
Well he needs to stop mentioning me in a derogatory way and then I wont respond

I was asked to play nice and not make personal attacks and I said I would play nice as long as others do and surprise surprise the Antisemite apologist just couldn't leave it alone

Anyway moving on until he does it again

It wont be long

He could always put me on ignore.

I've done it to some who I think are deplorable like CP and Banger
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Now who is playing the victim.

CP is not an anti Semite and you demean the term every time you use it to smear him for your own ends.

He is now doing the same to me playing the racism card. I was pointing that out. It actually had nothing to do with you. It wasn't a bat signal for you to turn up throwing insults as if you had been gravely offended.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
There are wildly different standards. The Spanish and Portuguese initiated their own style of holocaust in the mines of South America and the Caribbean. Yet this is not taught, it is not especially acknowledged in the west and i don't believe it is the cause of any particular introspection in Spain. I'm sure Turkey is a similar case.

Similarly, Japan is one of the most racist and xenophobic developed countries in the world. Yet the west ignores that or accepts that as their right and one not fit for us to question or criticise.

My point being that Britain does tend to hold itself to higher levels of introspection and responsibility for past actions than many other nations. I'm not saying that's a bad thing
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There’s also how far back in history is captured in this. Crusades, Mongol empire and the Assyrian Empire.
Then you have Cromwell in Ireland, the conquistadors and the New World colonies and their impact on indigenous populations.
The Japanese Empire who infamously used Chinese babies for bayonet practice.

To single out the slave trade, although as abhorrent and shameful humans have ever been, is not unique in this regard.
 
Forest-England said:
You knew that Defuq would see it and comment. Again he was out of order with the language he used.

Just no need for it.
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Rubbish.

Wasn't about him, was about CP. DF lies about CP being anti Semitic. He should own that. CP shouldn't repeat the behaviour.

He is without doubt the most abusive poster on this forum. I am not treading on eggshells, avoiding mentioning him just in case he explodes. Tough
 
in_the_top_one said:
You have got the hump with me but I agree with a lot of that. LK has indeed looked for only the positives and even implied it couldn't have been that bad because there weren't many British soldiers in India, ffs. (Fred West was good at patios, etc).
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Because of my views on other things you are taking everything I said out of context. The killings were wrong , but set in an era of different morals , poorer education etc. as Pope has said. There were colonials there before us. As I've said before, everyone looks at these things as clear cut, but the point I was trying to make was that the majority of the soldiers were Indian. It wasn't a case , from what little I've read of the British (alone) fighting the Indians. Various colonial armies supported by different Indian kingdoms fought each other. The number of troops we had there couldn't possibly have ruled India without the support of Indian soldiers.
 
i am a tree said:
Pope out of interest do you think African Americans who are descended from slaves are due reparations?
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No. The 1860s was the time for that, although to an extent that was already too late.

Descendents of slaves were not slaves, and their white neighbours were not slavers.

Not being routinely shot by police, having genuine equality before the law and genuine equality of opportunity is the reparations they are due, because they are the wrongs they have suffered.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Rubbish.

Wasn't about him, was about CP. DF lies about CP being anti Semitic. He should own that. CP shouldn't repeat the behaviour.

He is without doubt the most abusive poster on this forum. I am not treading on eggshells, avoiding mentioning him just in case he explodes. Tough
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Oh look at me my abuse of posters is ok but because DF uses harsher language im going to cry and moan like a little bitch

Listen up

You pack the fucker in and I will too

Just as I predicted you had a pop at me when no mentions from me about you for ages

It is the same as a couple of other posters who have reared their ugly heads again today

As for CP being anti-Semitic we have a had a Jewish poster calling him out for being anti-Semitic to him to so get fucked with your fake virtue signalling you absolute specimen
 
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da fuq said:
Oh look at me my abuse of posters is ok but because DF uses harsher language im going to cry and moan like a little bitch

Listen up

You pack the fucker in and I will too

Just as I predicted you had a pop at me when no mentions from me about you for ages

It is the same as a couple of other posters who have reared their ugly heads again today

As for CP being antisemetic we have a had a Jewish poster calling him out for being antisemetic to him to so get fucked with your fake virtue signalling you absolute specimen
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I haven't abused anyone on this thread, except calling you a pathetic egotist for being triggered by a passing reference.

You really, really aren't as important as you think you are
 
OK, so I probably didn't debate as constructively as I could yesterday. My apologies for that.

I think Covid stuff has gotten under my skin the last couple of days and my midset hasn't been super healthy.

I retract any allegations of racism, and accept they aren't (at least an overt) manifestation of such.

I do believe the legacy of Colonialism and Slavery are so closely intertwined to the extent that it's nigh on impossible to separate them out. However they are also distinct and I recognise that for some posters the distinction is much more apparent.

I do believe we continue to profit from both and others continue to suffer from both. For me that renders the argument sins of our fathers as redundant but I can see how others struggle to make the connection.

Reperations for slavery (and indeed Colonialism) are essentially a mia culpa, an acknowledgement that we profited from the misery of others, and continue to do so.

That won't undo the historical damage that Western nations have done but they can be a platform towards easing the pain that continues to linger and a step towards creating a more equal society.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
No. The 1860s was the time for that, although to an extent that was already too late.

Descendents of slaves were not slaves, and their white neighbours were not slavers.

Not being routinely shot by police, having genuine equality before the law and genuine equality of opportunity is the reparations they are due, because they are the wrongs they have suffered.
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I really have to disagree.
Slavery was a holocaust slowed down and perpetrated over 250-300 years. The anger is still there in the US, and there are still people in government who believe that slavery wasn't that bad.

I actually agree with most of your points individually, but those points don't tell the whole story.

Imagine how the US could be transformed socially and politically if reparations, in addition to social change, was government policy. Racism is the number 1 issue in the US and will be for generations to come... Unless someone does something about it.

Everyone's asking for unity in America but there's still this huge, unanswered injustice hanging over everybody's heads.
 
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