#COVID19 | Page 891 | Vital Football

#COVID19

radfordinlondon

Vital Champions League
I think that's harsh.
Many people's profession can be viewed from the outside and dumbed down; there are qualities in each profession that cannot be taught which are often overlooked: Patience, empathy, etc. which you need in spades to be a teacher (especially one of primary school age).
To compound this, everyone has been to school, ergo everyone knows what it's like to be a teacher, right?

It's a profession that is probably within me from a purely educational attainment background, but as much out of my reach, as a professional footballer is for the other qualities demanded, which I know I don't have.
Why cant mrs strett post more often. Authenticity matters!
 

Calvin Plummer

Vital Football Legend
I think that's harsh.
Many people's profession can be viewed from the outside and dumbed down; there are qualities in each profession that cannot be taught which are often overlooked: Patience, empathy, etc. which you need in spades to be a teacher (especially one of primary school age).
To compound this, everyone has been to school, ergo everyone knows what it's like to be a teacher, right?

It's a profession that is probably within me from a purely educational attainment background, but as much out of my reach, as a professional footballer is for the other qualities demanded, which I know I don't have.
That's my point lol

Every profession has worth but for Pope teachers are worth more than others and deserve priority.

I'm trying to demonstrate that every profession has value and that worth is purely subjective.

Do you think the government is wrong to prioritise death over creating a list of priorities by vocation?

Presumably Pope would vaccinate the unemployed last as they're worth least to him.
 

Strett

Vital 1st Team Regular
That's my point lol

Every profession has worth but for Pope teachers are worth more than others and deserve priority.

I'm trying to demonstrate that every profession has value and that worth is purely subjective.

Do you think the government is wrong to prioritise death over creating a list of priorities by vocation?

Presumably Pope would vaccinate the unemployed last as they're worth least to him.
To best way to prevent the spread of the virus is isolation from others.
The next best is social distancing and the like.
Then the vaccine.

Schools are set to return a week today, so Numbers 1 and 2 above become redundant, so the vaccine seems the only option, as we are seeing encouraging results about the vaccine's efficacy in reducing infections.

+ve cases will increase from next Monday which with that, an increase in risk of a teacher contracting it, which will also lead to increase of fatalities**; that is just numbers logic.
To inoculate the teachers seems a logical step, but as you suggest a lot will be done, fairly soon anyway.

**I understand the fatalities in this age range we are discussing are small.
 

Calvin Plummer

Vital Football Legend
To best way to prevent the spread of the virus is isolation from others.
The next best is social distancing and the like.
Then the vaccine.

Schools are set to return a week today, so Numbers 1 and 2 above become redundant, so the vaccine seems the only option, as we are seeing encouraging results about the vaccine's efficacy in reducing infections.

+ve cases will increase from next Monday which with that, an increase in risk of a teacher contracting it, which will also lead to increase of fatalities**; that is just numbers logic.
To inoculate the teachers seems a logical step, but as you suggest a lot will be done, fairly soon anyway.

**I understand the fatalities in this age range we are discussing are small.
Not the data: 14.99% of teachers have tested positive for C19 antibodies.

18.22% of working adults as a whole.

They are not at increased risk of infection and they clearly are at lower risk of serious illness and death than the over 40s.

So no, it is not numbers logic lol

We are also discussing teachers under 40 (as anyone over 40 will be vaccinated) who are middle class, white and female on the whole. They just do not die lol

Honestly read the data, this going on hunches does my nut in.
 

Strett

Vital 1st Team Regular
Not the data: 14.99% of teachers have tested positive for C19 antibodies.

18.22% of working adults as a whole.

They are not at increased risk of infection and they clearly are at lower risk of serious illness and death than the over 40s.

So no, it is not numbers logic lol

We are also discussing teachers under 40 (as anyone over 40 will be vaccinated) who are middle class, white and female on the whole. They just do not die lol

Honestly read the data, this going on hunches does my nut in.
Is that because many teachers are not mixing in the same way as the general working population?
 

Calvin Plummer

Vital Football Legend
Is that because many teachers are not mixing in the same way as the general working population?
I don't have any data to answer that, I suspect it's behavioural driven. They feel at risk so take precautions that others neglect. That's guesswork though.

Either way it gives lie to the supposition that they're more at risk of catching C19. Teachers under 40 are most definitely not more at risk of serious illness or death than the general population over 40-49 though.

Again for me there are 3 clear factors that make this the correct strategy:

1) It targets those most at risk of dying or serious illness

2) It avoids any type of debate on who's job is more important

3) it's simple and works. Never underestimate the value of this as a plan.

Besides, why am I defending government strategy and you criticising it :p
 

Pope John XXIII

Vital Football Legend
Not the data: 14.99% of teachers have tested positive for C19 antibodies.

18.22% of working adults as a whole.

They are not at increased risk of infection and they clearly are at lower risk of serious illness and death than the over 40s.

So no, it is not numbers logic lol

We are also discussing teachers under 40 (as anyone over 40 will be vaccinated) who are middle class, white and female on the whole. They just do not die lol

Honestly read the data, this going on hunches does my nut in.
This is from the Guardian the other day, my old disingenuous friend

Screenshot_20210301-172019_Gallery.jpg
It does not take a huge leap of intelligence to realise that, in the last 12 months, teachers have been exposed to the full risk of COVID for only 13 weeks. That isn't their fault, it is the government locking schools down.

It is therefore perhaps slightly more credible to imagine that teachers have less chance of having antibodies because they have spent a sizable portion of the last 52 weeks having to stay in their homes to teach and only a minority of the time actually at the full risk. But, as shown above, when exposed to the full risk they are understandably more likely than most to contract it.

That is surely more likely than your theory that fairies use magic dust to protect teachers in exactly the kind of environment the virus thrives.

And I see you are still incapable of moving on from talking exclusively about the death rate.

That's my point lol

Every profession has worth but for Pope teachers are worth more than others and deserve priority.

I'm trying to demonstrate that every profession has value and that worth is purely subjective.

Do you think the government is wrong to prioritise death over creating a list of priorities by vocation?

Presumably Pope would vaccinate the unemployed last as they're worth least to him.
This is your most dishonest post yet.

I think police have more importance to society than any of the other groups we have mentioned. You might remember that I called for NHS to be vaccinated before anybody else. As a woke warrior you presumably want to defund the police, but I personally see the economy opening at a time when police are stretched due to self isolating colleagues to be something of a bad thing.

If ever I thought I had any human worth whatsoever, a conversation with you, Woanz and a few others would serve to thoroughly disabuse me of that notion. But I happen to have heard a lot of talk by politicians in the last few weeks about the absolutely national necessity of having schools open and children in classrooms. I have been consistently making the point (which you consistently misrepresent) that if that really is a national priority then it makes sense to ensure it can be delivered; which is helped by staff not having to self isolate. I have pointed out how easy it is to organise this. Instead, you prefer to present it as teachers being craven. Fine.


And you dislike it, why wouldn't you? Especially given your general attitude towards face masks and social distancing.
I am perfectly entitled to be anxious about wearing a masks due to a legitimate diagnosed mental health issue. I have never once refused to wear a mask where it is mandated nor refused to socially distance. Uncalled for IMO.

For the record yup I could teach A levels and an enormous amount of people could replace primary school teachers. The bar for teaching is not particularly high, and while there are some great teachers there is an awful lot of mediocrity and worse...
You could understand A Levels. Could you actually teach them? Do you have the patience and understanding?

Would you know what to say to and do for a child that told you they were contemplating suicide, as one told me today?

What's the nasty bit? It's reality, teachers are of varied quality. From life changing to bullies and abusers. The vast majority are well meaning but mediocre.
I'll accept that as your admission that teaching is an extremely difficult job that is hard to be good at.

Similarly your belief that only low skilled workers who are easily replaceable are responsible for our food, water, power etc is patently wrong. Even if it was true, so what? They're still people trying to eek out a life for themselves and their family, you might view them as easily replaceable but I'm uncomfortable assigning worth to people in the way you have.
You have flipped over to talking simply about deaths again. This isn't about the value of life. The discussion has been about allowing services to get up and running again. You keep switching it to be about deaths when you want to get on a high horse because you have no argument.

If one student gets COVID, that could, on a bad day, wipe out 4-5 teachers. If one teacher gets it, on a bad day it could wipe out 7-8 teachers for 10 days. Those teachers are replaceable by a body in the classroom but not by someone who can do the same job.

If a supermarket worker gets COVID and has to self isolate, they are replaced by another supermarket worker or a temp and there is no disruption in service. That is the nature of low skilled work. It's not a discussion about deaths; you responded to my argument by claiming that individual supermarket workers were just as vital to their businesses as a policeman is to theirs; but they are not. As soon as you realised that argument was nonsense you switched over to talking about deaths again.

Hence why for once the government is pursuing the correct path of a simple and effective solution that most readily cuts deaths, cuts pressure on the NHS without having to value one person's worth over another.
This entire debate started with me pointing out how easy and non-disruptive it could be to vaccinate three groups alongside the 40's group (police, prison officers, teachers). You have then expanded that, and seemed to manufacture some sort of offence to the point that you are now effectively claiming that teachers are worthless to society.

That is your prerogative and I'm sorry if a simple debate has upset you so much.
 

Calvin Plummer

Vital Football Legend
This is from the Guardian the other day, my old disingenuous friend

View attachment 46517
It does not take a huge leap of intelligence to realise that, in the last 12 months, teachers have been exposed to the full risk of COVID for only 13 weeks. That isn't their fault, it is the government locking schools down.

It is therefore perhaps slightly more credible to imagine that teachers have less chance of having antibodies because they have spent a sizable portion of the last 52 weeks having to stay in their homes to teach and only a minority of the time actually at the full risk. But, as shown above, when exposed to the full risk they are understandably more likely than most to contract it.

That is surely more likely than your theory that fairies use magic dust to protect teachers in exactly the kind of environment the virus thrives.

And I see you are still incapable of moving on from talking exclusively about the death rate.



This is your most dishonest post yet.

I think police have more importance to society than any of the other groups we have mentioned. You might remember that I called for NHS to be vaccinated before anybody else. As a woke warrior you presumably want to defund the police, but I personally see the economy opening at a time when police are stretched due to self isolating colleagues to be something of a bad thing.

If ever I thought I had any human worth whatsoever, a conversation with you, Woanz and a few others would serve to thoroughly disabuse me of that notion. But I happen to have heard a lot of talk by politicians in the last few weeks about the absolutely national necessity of having schools open and children in classrooms. I have been consistently making the point (which you consistently misrepresent) that if that really is a national priority then it makes sense to ensure it can be delivered; which is helped by staff not having to self isolate. I have pointed out how easy it is to organise this. Instead, you prefer to present it as teachers being craven. Fine.




I am perfectly entitled to be anxious about wearing a masks due to a legitimate diagnosed mental health issue. I have never once refused to wear a mask where it is mandated nor refused to socially distance. Uncalled for IMO.



You could understand A Levels. Could you actually teach them? Do you have the patience and understanding?

Would you know what to say to and do for a child that told you they were contemplating suicide, as one told me today?



I'll accept that as your admission that teaching is an extremely difficult job that is hard to be good at.



You have flipped over to talking simply about deaths again. This isn't about the value of life. The discussion has been about allowing services to get up and running again. You keep switching it to be about deaths when you want to get on a high horse because you have no argument.

If one student gets COVID, that could, on a bad day, wipe out 4-5 teachers. If one teacher gets it, on a bad day it could wipe out 7-8 teachers for 10 days. Those teachers are replaceable by a body in the classroom but not by someone who can do the same job.

If a supermarket worker gets COVID and has to self isolate, they are replaced by another supermarket worker or a temp and there is no disruption in service. That is the nature of low skilled work. It's not a discussion about deaths; you responded to my argument by claiming that individual supermarket workers were just as vital to their businesses as a policeman is to theirs; but they are not. As soon as you realised that argument was nonsense you switched over to talking about deaths again.



This entire debate started with me pointing out how easy and non-disruptive it could be to vaccinate three groups alongside the 40's group (police, prison officers, teachers). You have then expanded that, and seemed to manufacture some sort of offence to the point that you are now effectively claiming that teachers are worthless to society.

That is your prerogative and I'm sorry if a simple debate has upset you so much.
So much of that is complete nonsense and projection.

Google hierarchy of needs. You will find security on there but after earing, drinking and shelter.

This is a discussion about death and serious illness, sorry you find that inconvenient to your argument.

Yes, you have decided which 3 groups are more worthy. The point is not everyone will share your your opinion - shock horror I know. Therefore it's subjective, unlike actual numbers, much as you might wish to ignore them.

As for ONS data, sorry I can't manipulate it as you wish but it is clear - and the vast majority of other workers have also been home too. In fact a lot of teachers have been teaching a lot of kids in schools during lockdown. Our local one is approximately a third full.

And oh look, you don't like it when people assign a worth to your contribution to society, but you are more than happy to do it to others. If they die it's neither here nor there...they are easily replaced etc etc.

Hypocrisy 1 Pope 0

The rest of that is just waffle to disguise your callous disregard to anyone you don't think as important as you are.
 

Pope John XXIII

Vital Football Legend
So much of that is complete nonsense and projection.

Google hierarchy of needs. You will find security on there but after earing, drinking and shelter.

This is a discussion about death and serious illness, sorry you find that inconvenient to your argument.

Yes, you have decided which 3 groups are more worthy. The point is not everyone will share your your opinion - shock horror I know. Therefore it's subjective, unlike actual numbers, much as you might wish to ignore them.

As for ONS data, sorry I can't manipulate it as you wish but it is clear - and the vast majority of other workers have also been home too. In fact a lot of teachers have been teaching a lot of kids in schools during lockdown. Our local one is approximately a third full.

And oh look, you don't like it when people assign a worth to your contribution to society, but you are more than happy to do it to others. If they die it's neither here nor there...they are easily replaced etc etc.

Hypocrisy 1 Pope 0

The rest of that is just waffle to disguise your callous disregard to anyone you don't think as important as you are.
I actually typed out a different reply originally, but changed my mind.

I'm sorry you feel that way, and i'm genuinely sorry that you have such a low opinion of teachers.

Have a good evening, hope the vaccination goes ok when it comes and I hope your Mrs is ok
 

JC21

Vital 1st Team Regular
Right, I've done my best to stop arguing with people on cos not only is it tiresome for me, but it's also tiresome for (most) other people to read (and managed all weekend even full of Stella :grinning:); I do, however, sometimes enjoying watching others go at each other. I'm saying this cos I'm really not going to get into a protracted debate with you CP when I say that I tend to find myself agreeing with Pope (yes you are all reading that correctly). I genuinely don't think Pope means what you think he does. I can fault Pope for many things and have done in the past, but I think you've done your usual thing and found an argument out of nothing (and I'm not even knocking you for that, some of us just like a good argument, I openly admit I do)
 

Calvin Plummer

Vital Football Legend
Right, I've done my best to stop arguing with people on cos not only is it tiresome for me, but it's also tiresome for (most) other people to read (and managed all weekend even full of Stella :grinning:); I do, however, sometimes enjoying watching others go at each other. I'm saying this cos I'm really not going to get into a protracted debate with you CP when I say that I tend to find myself agreeing with Pope (yes you are all reading that correctly). I genuinely don't think Pope means what you think he does. I can fault Pope for many things and have done in the past, but I think you've done your usual thing and found an argument out of nothing (and I'm not even knocking you for that, some of us just like a good argument, I openly admit I do)
Not really my argument, and I'm surprised that Mr Socialist feels the middle class are more valuable than workers: that their deaths are neither here nor there because they're easily replaceable.

M&E would be turning in their grave!
 

Calvin Plummer

Vital Football Legend
I actually typed out a different reply originally, but changed my mind.

I'm sorry you feel that way, and i'm genuinely sorry that you have such a low opinion of teachers.

Have a good evening, hope the vaccination goes ok when it comes and I hope your Mrs is ok
I have a very high opinion of teaching and a mixed opinion of teachers. The two are very different. As I said there are teachers who change your life, that inspire you, that guide you, that help to shape you, that help you to see new possibilities you never dreamt possible.

Then there are the majority of teachers who I'm sure mostly mean well and try their best but ultimately are pretty mediocre at their job.

Finally we have the bullies and the abusers who makes kids lives so much worse. Sadly they exist, maybe they're less prevalent than 30 years ago, I hope so, but I doubt they've disappeared.

For me the solution is to lift teaching up, to make it so you need more than a couple of GCSEs. Double, triple their salaries. Do the same with funding for schools. Make them cathedrals. Make it a profession that attracts the brightest and best.
 

Pope John XXIII

Vital Football Legend
I have a very high opinion of teaching and a mixed opinion of teachers. The two are very different. As I said there are teachers who change your life, that inspire you, that guide you, that help to shape you, that help you to see new possibilities you never dreamt possible.

Then there are the majority of teachers who I'm sure mostly mean well and try their best but ultimately are pretty mediocre at their job.

Finally we have the bullies and the abusers who makes kids lives so much worse. Sadly they exist, maybe they're less prevalent than 30 years ago, I hope so, but I doubt they've disappeared.

For me the solution is to lift teaching up, to make it so you need more than a couple of GCSEs. Double, triple their salaries. Do the same with funding for schools. Make them cathedrals. Make it a profession that attracts the brightest and best.
What teacher have you ever seen that has just a couple of GCSE's?

We don't want triple salaries. We get paid enough. Give that to doctors instead. They aren't paid enough.

The brightest and best are not going to take the hassle we have for any money. I'm imagining you coming from some sort of public school background from your comments. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think you have the wrong idea about what schools are like.

I have the most admiration for Finland. Not so much their schools; the one I've been too would have been closed by Ofsted despite it being excellent. But they have a political consensus that their system is great and they respect teaching as a profession. People want to be teachers because it is status.

We are still held back by the evils of the tripartite system that left two generations of secondary modern kids as semi literate adults with a visceral hatred of schooling and teachers. Even the first comps were hangovers from that. No longer the older generations loathe teachers.
 

Calvin Plummer

Vital Football Legend
What teacher have you ever seen that has just a couple of GCSE's?

We don't want triple salaries. We get paid enough. Give that to doctors instead. They aren't paid enough.

The brightest and best are not going to take the hassle we have for any money. I'm imagining you coming from some sort of public school background from your comments. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think you have the wrong idea about what schools are like.

I have the most admiration for Finland. Not so much their schools; the one I've been too would have been closed by Ofsted despite it being excellent. But they have a political consensus that their system is great and they respect teaching as a profession. People want to be teachers because it is status.

We are still held back by the evils of the tripartite system that left two generations of secondary modern kids as semi literate adults with a visceral hatred of schooling and teachers. Even the first comps were hangovers from that. No longer the older generations loathe teachers.
Nope, I am from a middle-class background but all 3 of us went to state schools. My brother in particular is still irked by this because his friends all left for a private school and despite him being offered a scholarship my parents wouldn't let him go out of principle.

Very culturally and class diverse schools too being in London.

I am aware what public schools have to offer and there are lessons that can be learned from each other.

Out of curiosity think about when you were at school, tell me how many teachers did you find truly inspirational? How many were just ok and how many were actually harmful to kids?
 

JC21

Vital 1st Team Regular
Not really my argument, and I'm surprised that Mr Socialist feels the middle class are more valuable than workers: that their deaths are neither here nor there because they're easily replaceable.

M&E would be turning in their grave!
Winding 2 people up on an internet forum really doesn't have anywhere near the same effect as in real life does it?

Pope, ya a pompous, self-righteous prick

CP, ya a ****

:grinning:
 

Pope John XXIII

Vital Football Legend
Nope, I am from a middle-class background but all 3 of us went to state schools. My brother in particular is still irked by this because his friends all left for a private school and despite him being offered a scholarship my parents wouldn't let him go out of principle.

Very culturally and class diverse schools too being in London.

I am aware what public schools have to offer and there are lessons that can be learned from each other.

Out of curiosity think about when you were at school, tell me how many teachers did you find truly inspirational? How many were just ok and how many were actually harmful to kids?
We are talking about the mid-late 90s

There was one that was harmful and I imagine may have done time for it. Another (art teacher) spent all lessons in the back having a fag.

I was fortunately to have quite a few really great teachers. But some of them were just fantastic human beings. As a child it isn't just about learning a subject. Sometimes you are learning from them about what kind of person you want to be.