COVID
- Thread starter mehmets_curlies
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GillsBluenose
Vital Football Hero
He appointed Starmer, so maybe Starmer stands for lies and cronyism in the view of the voters, hence what the polls are saying.
Still have not seen any punishments for all the supposedly rampant and widespread anti semitism that Starmer promised immediate action on when suspending Corbyn for expressing his views many moons ago.
Yes, agree with the comments about his appointees. Corbyn was a rabbit in the headlights.
As you know I've rated Starmer highly for years but he has a massive job in trying to regain credibility in Labour.
Baghdad_Rob
Vital 1st Team Regular
I never commented as to whether or not 12.5% is justifiable or not. That is a different issue.
However, the linking of the figure to the hard work done during Covid and trying to take advantage of the public goodwill towards the NHS could be counter productive PR wise as there will be members of the public who think the NHS staff should be rewarded but the number of 12.5% being banded about as excessive.
Baghdad_Rob
Vital 1st Team Regular
You try and correct my comment that the EU haven't ratified the deal and then you comment as per above that the EU Parliament have not yet ratified the deal due to the need to scrutinise the deal.
jogills
Vital Football Hero
I still don't buy your argument and looking mean to this group of workers while chucking money at donors, a press office and redecoration will be remembered.,
ThreeSixes
Vital Football Hero
Maybe you don't buy the argument as you are retired? The people that are financially affected by Covid the most are of working age, and especially the poor, self-employed and young. Asking for a 12.5% raise seems to demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of what is happening in the country.
jogills
Vital Football Hero
It's nothing to do with my retired state and I could just as easily argue that might make me less supportive as I'm on a fixed income. You surely do understand how pay claims and pay negotiations work. The opening figure is a headline designed in this case to draw attention to the notional loss of income caused by the pay freeze.
If you have listened to commentary from NHS workers and union representatives you will know that they are aiming much lower. There is also the matter of a 2.1.% rise having been pledged prior to the pandemic. Check the media and polling, the majority of the public consider 1% an insult.
If you have listened to commentary from NHS workers and union representatives you will know that they are aiming much lower. There is also the matter of a 2.1.% rise having been pledged prior to the pandemic. Check the media and polling, the majority of the public consider 1% an insult.
Rob_b100
Vital 1st Team Regular
However Jo lots have things have been promised before the pandemic that have now had to be shelved. In both private and public sector. Where I work, our apprenticeship intake is rumoured to be shelved for the second year running. The groundwork justification and presentation work I have put together for new machine tool investment is Proved to be pointless as there is no capex spend for a second year throughout the business.
My own take on it, yes, nurses deserve to be paid more. But so do police, fire, teachers, etc who are all on a pay freeze. Many on here have stated they will get a pay freeze this year. Going back to my own company again, they have announced no rises this year- in fact many are still on some sort of furlough (a wage “cut” of sorts).
I get why they are so upset about it, and why they are keeping it relevant now. As nobby said earlier, if they swallowed, it wait a year (hopefully things are back to normal-ish), then say “how about a rise? We were front line in a pandemic?” No one will remember/care how tough is was for them or how hard they worked.
Couldn’t we give them some of this weeks £350M? I assume that’s not spent yet?..
GillsBluenose
Vital Football Hero
While the majority of nurses do a great job, they are paid pretty generously, if this is right:
Adult nurse job profile | Prospects.ac.uk
I am retired now, but never earned more than £21,000 p.a during my career in a Bank, although I appreciate that they are required to do longer and sometimes less sociable hours (although they are compensated separately for that). I was in a reasonably generous final salary pension scheme, but as far as I understand, so are NHS workers.
The fact is that there are lots of deserving professions that are suffering a pay freeze due to these exceptional circumstances.
By all means compare the offer with money that the Government has wasted elsewhere, but those are one off sums. For that reason I would have supported a generous one off bonus for NHS staff instead of an over generous pay rise at a time of very low inflation.
Otherwise, give them, for instance, a 3% pay rise, but raise the basic income tax rate by 2% to show them where the money has to be raised from and the effect it has on inflation. Would medical staff really be better off then?
Adult nurse job profile | Prospects.ac.uk
I am retired now, but never earned more than £21,000 p.a during my career in a Bank, although I appreciate that they are required to do longer and sometimes less sociable hours (although they are compensated separately for that). I was in a reasonably generous final salary pension scheme, but as far as I understand, so are NHS workers.
The fact is that there are lots of deserving professions that are suffering a pay freeze due to these exceptional circumstances.
By all means compare the offer with money that the Government has wasted elsewhere, but those are one off sums. For that reason I would have supported a generous one off bonus for NHS staff instead of an over generous pay rise at a time of very low inflation.
Otherwise, give them, for instance, a 3% pay rise, but raise the basic income tax rate by 2% to show them where the money has to be raised from and the effect it has on inflation. Would medical staff really be better off then?
Adult Nurse on Band 5 has to supervise staff so that's hardly a junior role. £24k for managing staff as well as doing the job (plus the unsocial hours) is actually worse than expected.
I wonder how long ago you were working full time in a bank on £21,000. Were you the cleaner? I don't mean offence btw.
I get that there is emotion re nurses and that many others have suffered. Unfortunately when we get back to "normal" the vast majority won't give a toss about them and be glad that they've been mugged off to our advantage. If I were a Tory in government I'd cynically ride it out.
ThreeSixes
Vital Football Hero
Personally I think they should scrap the public sector final salary pensions for Nurses, and give them the equivalent 35 - 40% of salary cost as extra salary instead. This may make the role seem more attractive.
ThreeSixes
Vital Football Hero
I do yes, which is why I think 12.5% as an opening salvo, in times of unemployment, furlough and pay freezes was a mistake. If they asked for 5%, they would be more likely to get 3%, no? If you ask for 12.5%, what is the difference between 1% and 3%? Both are miles below what you have asked for, so you'd be equally unhappy with either
ThreeSixes
Vital Football Hero
Millions of people would love to be getting the same income as they were last year.
Rob_b100
Vital 1st Team Regular
Agree with this. Mentioning the 12.5% percent with a caveat of “obviously in a time of national crisis we don’t expect it...etc....” would’ve been a better approach imo. To ask for 4,5 or 6 would’ve got wider approval I think.
Of course the government may have a (slightly) improved offer up their sleeves to announce in a week or so if all hasn’t died down. Maybe they’re hoping lockdown easing and the MM interview will knock this off the front pages for a while.
Nobby_66
Vital Football Hero
"Of course the government may have a (slightly) improved offer up their sleeves"
Hope not Rob, wouldn't want a government that does yet another u turn based on what the public want would we?
jogills
Vital Football Hero
Frontline NHS workers have done some very special work during the pandemic. No one doubts that plenty of others have had a hard time but they haven't had the extreme experiences of doctors and nurses. That deserves recognition and reward as promised. I'd argue foor a similar increase for care home workers. We need lots of people willing to do these jobs in the future.
jogills
Vital Football Hero
I'm not sure how many have actually been involved in a wage negotiation but "reasonable " first pitches end in very poor outcomes. The relevant figures are 2.1% promised before the heroics during the pandemic and 1% after. That is why there is so much support for the NHS workers and why the government will continue to come under pressure. For heavens sake a number of their own MPs have publicly stated that it's not enough.
GillsBluenose
Vital Football Hero
If you read that link again, you will see that a newly qualified nurse starts on £24k+. I don't think in those circumstances they would immediately be managing or supervising staff.
The comparison I made with my earnings was because it is an easy reference. No, I was not a cleaner (although many colleagues would have said that is all I was good for) but I did practically every clerical job, serving large corporate customers and at one stage I was required to represent the Bank when meeting Finance Directors at their premises. Like everyone else, I thought I was underpaid, at least until a pay award was divided within my section (doing the same job), and I received the lowest increase as I was informed I was the highest earner !
Boring, I know, but an example of how the public sector can be far better rewarded than the private sector. My brother was an Environmental Health Officer and not only earned substantially more than me but is now enjoying his gold plated pension.
NB: In my profession, it was always clear that my career and salary prospects would have been much higher if I had agreed to work in London, but that was never practical due to my personal circumstances. The link shows that nurses would also earn even more in London.
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Can't believe why we have such shortages in these well paid jobs with gold plated pensions then. Can't understand why I struggled to recruit decent staff when running my department at school or the shortage of 80,000 health service staff.
People in the private sector should dive into the public sector and enjoy the secure, well paid stress free conditions. Obviously mugs for not doing so. Only themselves to blame.
Ps. As I read it, the job description for the Adult nurse starting at the pay scale you mentioned had to supervise other staff amongst a pile of other responsibilities which could cost someones life if they f###ed up.
Anyway, all of you suffering in the private sector, go and join the public sector. It's a cakewalk apparently.
