Covid 19 | Page 9 | Vital Football

Covid 19

nitram77

Vital Squad Member
Are you shielding Tommy, we should be told.

It's nothing to do with islam it's a worlwide pandemic. All religions are being "appeased" as all places of worship are open. In fact all the evidence suggests that most infections are taking place inside homes.

We need Public Health Officers and local councils spreading information and administrating test track and trace in their own localities. They know who live s where and under what conditions. They have the contacts and local knowledge. Unfortunately our government has failed to share information with local councils and officials on the ground and has awarded huge track and trace contracts to private operators with a long history of failure. That is what is going on.
I will say I don't agree with VG in any way, but equally your accusations of government collusion with private test companies is also rubbish, and where is the proof that the local councils aren't being kept informed.
Far too much false information being stated as fact.
 

jogills

Vital 1st Team Regular
I will say I don't agree with VG in any way, but equally your accusations of government collusion with private test companies is also rubbish, and where is the proof that the local councils aren't being kept informed.
Far too much false information being stated as fact.
I have not suggested collusion in any way. I have stated that the government is relying on private companies to run it's test and trace systems (SERCO). It has bern widely reported that they have failed on other contracts and have been fined £1M on one occasion for such failure.

Numbers of local council leaders, mayors and Public Health Officers have gone on record as saying that government has not shared information fully and swiftly. Oldham and Leicester just two of a number of examples. There is nothing false about this at all.
 

Gills 58

Vital 1st Team Regular
I will say I don't agree with VG in any way, but equally your accusations of government collusion with private test companies is also rubbish, and where is the proof that the local councils aren't being kept informed.
Far too much false information being stated as fact.
Local councils keep saying they aren't informed. My mate works for Bromley Council and tells me the same. Perhaps he is lying to me Nitram. Ludicrous sums of money being paid to private companies when Councils have their own public health staff that should be consulted/informed/used.

Deloitte ffs. An accountacy firm. What the f#ck do they know about public health issues?

Open your eyes Nitram.

This Tory cabinet will soon be giving out contracts to their Russian sponsors.
 

nitram77

Vital Squad Member
I have not suggested collusion in any way. I have stated that the government is relying on private companies to run it's test and trace systems (SERCO). It has bern widely reported that they have failed on other contracts and have been fined £1M on one occasion for such failure.

Numbers of local council leaders, mayors and Public Health Officers have gone on record as saying that government has not shared information fully and swiftly. Oldham and Leicester just two of a number of examples. There is nothing false about this at all.
Local councils keep saying they aren't informed. My mate works for Bromley Council and tells me the same. Perhaps he is lying to me Nitram. Ludicrous sums of money being paid to private companies when Councils have their own public health staff that should be consulted/informed/used.

Deloitte ffs. An accountacy firm. What the f#ck do they know about public health issues?

Open your eyes Nitram.

This Tory cabinet will soon be giving out contracts to their Russian sponsors.
So a local mayor or councilor, in an area that is suffering high covid levels and more lockdown measures, blames the government as it's not their fault. And you're quite happy to believe that, so we have a socialist supporting a socialist councilor rather than look for evidence.
 

Baghdad_Rob

Vital Squad Member
I have not suggested collusion in any way. I have stated that the government is relying on private companies to run it's test and trace systems (SERCO).
And a lot of other countries are looking to use the test and trace software being developed and run by Apple and Google. Apple and Google are, of course, non-private governmental departments of erm, er, oh...

The point I am making is that there is nothing particularly newsworthy about the idea that governments might be using private companies etc in developing and running tracing apps.
 

Baghdad_Rob

Vital Squad Member
Local councils keep saying they aren't informed. My mate works for Bromley Council and tells me the same. Perhaps he is lying to me Nitram. Ludicrous sums of money being paid to private companies when Councils have their own public health staff that should be consulted/informed/used.
Local councils might have their own public health staff but

a) Nationwide tracing might be better done at the national level rather than relying on the local individual councils to try and keep a lid on people who might well have passed through multiple council areas during the day. It might be better to have one or two national centers where training is consistant rather than get the local governments work out how to staff their local centers. The cynic in me thinks if the councils were responsible then there would be complaints that some councils do a good job while others do a piss poor job (and I am sure The Guardian will do an article about how BAME are being victimised more as evidenced by a number of predominately black areas are doing worse than some white ones).

b) On the basis that councils keep complaining they are underfinanced and overworked, especially in the health department side of things, then maybe they are too overworked and shouldn't be overburdened with the extra responsibility.

I'd hazard a guess that information is being passed down but not the detail of information that the local councils want. If private firms are the ones running the operation, there is no reason why councils would be given in depth information or be consulted on.

This Tory cabinet will soon be giving out contracts to their Russian sponsors.
Didn't you once say that people who believed in conspiracy theories they read online were idiots?
 

nitram77

Vital Squad Member
This virus is a total mystery even after all these months, I am still waiting for someone to explain why our world beating health service are suffering more deaths than most countries. Blaming the government would be the easy way out, but it doesn't explain why the NHS are suffering more deaths per infected capita than other health services. is our population older, do we have more underlying health problems. or is our health service not as good as India, Pakistan, Russia, Chile, all with more cases and fewer deaths.
I have said before and repeated from the start of this pandemic, until we are over the worst and know more about it, then we need to put blame and petty party politics to one side.
 

Gills 58

Vital 1st Team Regular
Local councils might have their own public health staff but

a) Nationwide tracing might be better done at the national level rather than relying on the local individual councils to try and keep a lid on people who might well have passed through multiple council areas during the day. It might be better to have one or two national centers where training is consistant rather than get the local governments work out how to staff their local centers. The cynic in me thinks if the councils were responsible then there would be complaints that some councils do a good job while others do a piss poor job (and I am sure The Guardian will do an article about how BAME are being victimised more as evidenced by a number of predominately black areas are doing worse than some white ones).

b) On the basis that councils keep complaining they are underfinanced and overworked, especially in the health department side of things, then maybe they are too overworked and shouldn't be overburdened with the extra responsibility.

I'd hazard a guess that information is being passed down but not the detail of information that the local councils want. If private firms are the ones running the operation, there is no reason why councils would be given in depth information or be consulted on.



Didn't you once say that people who believed in conspiracy theories they read online were idiots?
???

Large donations to multiple Tory cabinet ministers/their constituences and you imagine they are doing this for no return?
Don't need to be a nutty conspiracy theorist to smell a rat.

I can only assume you are naive unless you are blindly trying to support your "side".

How about I claim that the Unions pay large sums into the Labour party but expect nothing in return?
 
Just read that scientists are advising Boris Johnson to "stay calm" over fears of the dreaded second wave saying there's no need to panic.
Begs the question, if he fears the wave but doesn't impose another lockdown because of scientist's advice, who will be to blame for all the deaths if the wave comes?
Conversely, if he imposes a lockdown causing more financial strife, but many fewer deaths, will he be slated for that?

F***ed if I'd do his job
I fully understand how tough a job it must be for Boris or any Primeminister during this pandemic but can you explain why we have the highest death toll in Europe while also having the advantage of being an island and actually having a headstart on how to deal with covid on countries like Italy and Spain?

I certainly don't think it's an easy job, far from it but you can't deny we are doing quite alot worse than other counties.
 

Nobby_66

Vital 1st Team Regular
I fully understand how tough a job it must be for Boris or any Primeminister during this pandemic but can you explain why we have the highest death toll in Europe while also having the advantage of being an island and actually having a headstart on how to deal with covid on countries like Italy and Spain?

I certainly don't think it's an easy job, far from it but you can't deny we are doing quite alot worse than other counties.
Sorry mate but I think you're arguing a different point. I wasn't talking about how we've done in the past.
As for your point about how high our death rate is, I think the inquiry into counting methods will throw up some rather large disparities between the totals we have been given and those that actually died of Covid. For example, flu deaths this year are (funnily enough) expected to be unusually low this year according to figures produced at end of Jan. The so called excess deaths figure is also dropping, so far we are currently running at 500 to 600 per week BELOW the previous five year average (for five weeks now)
Let's come back in five years time and take a five year average (which is how the expected deaths figures are calculated) and see how well or poorly we did.
 

ThreeSixes

Vital 1st Team Regular
This virus is a total mystery even after all these months, I am still waiting for someone to explain why our world beating health service are suffering more deaths than most countries. Blaming the government would be the easy way out, but it doesn't explain why the NHS are suffering more deaths per infected capita than other health services. is our population older, do we have more underlying health problems. or is our health service not as good as India, Pakistan, Russia, Chile, all with more cases and fewer deaths.
The life expectancy in Pakistan for example is 67 years, whilst in the UK it is 79 (men) and 83 (women). That would be an explanation of why the covid death rate is higher in the UK than Pakistan - there aren't as many elderly in Pakistan, as they are already dead
 

nitram77

Vital Squad Member
The life expectancy in Pakistan for example is 67 years, whilst in the UK it is 79 (men) and 83 (women). That would be an explanation of why the covid death rate is higher in the UK than Pakistan - there aren't as many elderly in Pakistan, as they are already dead
That is exactly the point I'm making, things aren't as clear cut as they seem. The median age in Pakistan is 22.8, in the UK it's 40.5, in Pakistan the urban population is 35.1%, in the UK it's 83.2%.
My point was always that we need to wait before making snap judgements on apportioning blame,
 

shotshy

Vital 1st Team Regular
My theory is that our world class health service has kept many people alive that really had no right to be, my own dear old mother in law included.
The current statistic of deaths is interesting but needs longer term comparison.
We may well find that over a five year average, it evens out and the deaths recorded with covid is not as severe as it first looked.
The actual statistics are now clear that the vast majority who have died were elderly with issues or the medically vulnerable.
The rate among fit healthy young people is really very low.
 

jogills

Vital 1st Team Regular
Both the Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Public Health have repeatedly complained of the government not sharing information about local infection numbers. To pretend otherwise is to defy reality, unfortunately our Prime Minister does that whenever things don't match up with his rhetoric. Both those bodies represent every political slant and none. I am not aware of a single "socialist" council and several tory led councils have made the same complaints.

Of course private companies will be involved with many activities that government is responsible for. The question here is whether they should have been preferred ahead of existing public bodies that have local knowledge and experience of fighting infections. That question is more pertinent still when those companies have a record of failure in providing public services and have previously been hit with large fines for their failures.

I hope that Manchester might point the way forward. Andy Burnham is not looking for a fight with government, welcomed the new measures and is speaking plainly. He needs to be supported by a government prepared to ditch its ideological obsessions surrounding public provision. Free the real experts to do their jobs.

It is worth remembering the numbers of posts on this board concerning raves and mass parties in Manchester. That seems an age ago but it was only a few weeks. Those partygoers were the enemy of the day but have now been forgotten as we pursue the muslims. Scapegoating gives a short buzz but the comedown is swift and the boring task of winding down infections to zero remains.
 
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ThreeSixes

Vital 1st Team Regular
It is worth remembering the numbers of posts on this board concerning raves and mass parties in Manchester. That seems an age ago but it was only a few weeks. Those partygoers were the enemy of the people have now been forgotten as we pursue the muslims. Scapegoating gives a short buzz but the comedown is swift and the boring task of winding down infections to zero remains.
No, "Manchester parties" were months ago, that's why they seem an age ago.

Everyone is scapegoating, if we aren't blaming the young and the reckless we are blaming the government. The local lockdowns in Leicester, Oldham, Luton, Manchester, Rochdale, Blackburn etc are from the 5% of the country that are Muslim, that is just stating facts - I don't think anyone on the board is kicking off about that but talk of "track and trace" and "protect the NHS" isn't going to achieve anything if communities are opting out.
 

nitram77

Vital Squad Member
Both the Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Public Health have repeatedly complained of the government not sharing information about local infection numbers. To pretend otherwise is to defy reality, unfortunately our Prime Minister does that whenever things don't match up with his rhetoric. Both those bodies represent every political slant and none. I am not aware of a single "socialist" council and several tory led councils have made the same complaints.

Of course private companies will be involved with many activities that government is responsible for. The question here is whether they should have been preferred ahead of existing public bodies that have local knowledge and experience of fighting infections. That question is more pertinent still when those companies have a record of failure in providing public services and have previously been hit with large fines for their failures.

I hope that Manchester might point the way forward. Andy Burnham is not looking for a fight with government, welcomed the new measures and is speaking plainly. He needs to be supported by a government prepared to ditch its ideological obsessions surrounding public provision. Free the real experts to do their jobs.

It is worth remembering the numbers of posts on this board concerning raves and mass parties in Manchester. That seems an age ago but it was only a few weeks. Those partygoers were the enemy of the day but have now been forgotten as we pursue the muslims. Scapegoating gives a short buzz but the comedown is swift and the boring task of winding down infections to zero remains.
you're so political in all your posts, the figures for local infections have to be reported nationally but are collected locally. Medway Hospital reports figures to those who ask, if local council don't ask then who's fault is it?
No don't answer you'll only blame Boris.
 

markinkent

Vital 1st Team Regular
???

Large donations to multiple Tory cabinet ministers/their constituences and you imagine they are doing this for no return?
Don't need to be a nutty conspiracy theorist to smell a rat.

I can only assume you are naive unless you are blindly trying to support your "side".

How about I claim that the Unions pay large sums into the Labour party but expect nothing in return?

The best description of the political system I have seen. Nobody donates large sums of money without expecting something in return.