Could the defence be the our strongest point next season?

[Will_Shahane]

I've noticed a few complaints about the defence on here recently, and this is understandable as it has been far from perfect. However, I think some people are forgetting that 3 of the 4 defenders who started against Bristol City hadn't played a single Championship game between them at the start of the season. Kipré and Dunkley's form has been erratic and inconsistent, but could we have expected differently given their complete lack of experience at this level? Personally, I think they've both had a high enough proportion good games to indicate that, with a little more experience to iron out those silly mistakes, they'll both make more than decent Championship centre-backs. We've found Byrne's favoured position at right back, and he's shown enough to indicate that he can be a good Championship player in that role whilst still offering a threat going forward. After Massey, Danny Fox is, in my opinion, the best permanent signing we've made under Cook who is still at the club. Somebody mentioned the statistic that we hadn't conceded in 420 minutes of Fox being on the pitch (until the Bristol game), and I think he's added a solid presence to the back-line, as well as offering a wealth of much needed experience. If we can manage to hold on to those four players, as well as adding one or two decent recruits, I think our defence could well be our strongest point next season.

 

[jeffs right]

Could possibly be next season in League One but in The Championship no they won't.
Two players could be good enough for Championship football out of our squad and that's Powell and James.

 

[C_Latic]

Gavin Massey wasn’t signed by Paul Cook. He was identified by David Sharpe and Roberto Martinez before Cook had even joined the club.

 

[dwdan]

Could possibly be next season in League One but in The Championship no they won't.
Two players could be good enough for Championship football out of our squad and that's Powell and James.

James is too good for the Championship!

 

[Kenny Morris]

Could possibly be next season in League One but in The Championship no they won't.
Two players could be good enough for Championship football out of our squad and that's Powell and James.

It's a good job you are not running the club, we would be bankrupt!!
I agree most of our squad are not YET good enough to be a top end Championship side, but the vast majority are plenty good enough to play in the Championship and hold our own

 

[Yon Mon]

I think Dunkley and Kipre are good enough for the Championship.
The problem I think is while Dunkley has been finding his feet in the division he's also had to try and guide Kipre as well.
Unfortunately this has lead to mix ups and mistakes between the pair. The experienced head of Fox has helped but sometimes Dunkley and Kipre have gone for the same ball so maybe a bit more communication between the pair will help.
It also hasn't helped that our holding midfielders have sat to deep and got in our defenders way.
Hopefully with a seasons Championship experience we can push on next season.

Going off our recent history we should be enjoying a promotion push next season.
I'd settle for mid Championship table mediocrity.

 

[DRAGNET]

If we keep drawing games, we will be talking league 1 next season . We will know our fate at 5pm on the 5th of May.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

Honestly i don't think with this management team Kipre and Dunkley will be good enough as both got the phydical attributes but too mistake prone. Under a different coach we might see them sort out the lapses like when Bruce made Bramble a lot more reliable but i think that the current combo at Championship level wont work next year either if we scrape survival.

 

[walgarthjohn]

To me KIPRE as not improved at all DUNKLEY is ok there but always a clanger waiting to happen

 

[Will_Shahane]

Honestly i don't think with this management team Kipre and Dunkley will be good enough as both got the phydical attributes but too mistake prone. Under a different coach we might see them sort out the lapses like when Bruce made Bramble a lot more reliable but i think that the current combo at Championship level wont work next year either if we scrape survival.

Don't you think that the frequency of their lapses in concentration might reduce with experience, though? It is their first season, after all. Look at Dan Burn, he was making errors left right and centre in the first half of the 2016-17 campaign, but towards the end he redeemed himself to the point of being in contention for 'Player of the Season'. Out of interest, what makes you think that this management team won't be able to help them?

 

[hindleymonwafc]

After watching Kipre this season he is capable of much good stuff and he seems a decent defender but if he cant stop dropping bollocks ( the Titus syndrome) it will be his undoing.

 

[moonay]

Fair comment that Hindley,........... and one that can probably be applied to a fair proportion of the team.

 

[C_Latic]

Honestly i don't think with this management team Kipre and Dunkley will be good enough as both got the phydical attributes but too mistake prone. Under a different coach we might see them sort out the lapses like when Bruce made Bramble a lot more reliable but i think that the current combo at Championship level wont work next year either if we scrape survival.

Funny you say that, I see a lot of similarities between Dunkley and Bramble. Both old school defenders, both colossus on their day but also both prone to make absolute howlers. Dunkley is so much better with an experienced man is next to him, constantly communicating. He’s also a big threat in the opposition box. He’s trousered some top Championship strikers this season but it gets forgotten when he makes a silly individual error (like Saturday’s slip) which costs us a goal.

Kipre was beaten in the air yet again for a goal at Bristol City. I’m genuinely staggered how someone with Kipre’s physical attributes can be so poor at man to man marking and aerial duels. He should look at a career in central midfield because he’s fairly good on the call but shocking at the basics of defending.

 

[Victor Moses ;)]

Compared to last time at this level we had Connolly-Buxton-Burn-Warnock. I'd personally rather have the defenders we have now. I honestly think our press is our main issue for our defensive issues. Teams can impose themselves on us to easily.

When Dunkley starts we forfeit 5% possession, which over the course of a game is quite a few potential opportunities to get forward with the ball, creating chances and generally having momentum. His distribution is the worst i've seen from any defender at this level this season. Marking and positioning is suspect most games as well. I like his intensity and aerial ability. But he panics on the ball and more often then not goes direct. Strikes me as the type of person who wants to do well and i think he'll improve each season, so i wouldn't give up on him yet.

Kipre has next to zero intensity, not afraid of a hard tackle or heading the ball but seems to casual for me. Although he's good with the ball, carries it and generally keeps the ball moving. For those reasons i'd like to see him start along side fox for a couple games. He's mobile enough, with size and strength to develop into a very decent player. But needs a run in the team instead of being placed left centre back, right centre back, outside centre back. Manager has played him all over the place in the back line because he is useful with both feet, almost all defenders have a side they're more capable on.

Usually not keen on signing older players, but Fox is a very decent player for this level. Not blessed with strength, pace or size, but has positioning, determination, reads the game well and always is committed. Along with being a very experienced player, only issue for me is that he sometimes gets caught on the ball and loses possession deep in our half.

I was saying all season Byrne is our best right back, although James is the better player. Best player in the league at defensive midfield and yet our manager played him at right back for the majority of the season after he proved how much more he could offer in that position earlier in the season.

We don't have a left back so can't comment on that position for next season.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

Don't you think that the frequency of their lapses in concentration might reduce with experience, though? It is their first season, after all. Look at Dan Burn, he was making errors left right and centre in the first half of the 2016-17 campaign, but towards the end he redeemed himself to the point of being in contention for 'Player of the Season'. Out of interest, what makes you think that this management team won't be able to help them?

Burn only improved when Caldwell went and Joyce came in, Caldwell was asking him to try and play it out under pressure which he wasn't any good at and we were overall defensively a bit of a mess. Under Joyce he stopped asking big Dan to do stuff he wasn't comfortable with and for all his sins he got us drastically better organised at the back - some of that came we playing even more defensive of course but i think it was the change in our coaching that brought more out of Burn - unfortunately the improvement in defence didn't lead to an improvement in play or results.

I think that is possible for Kipre and Dunkley to improve under new coaches with fresh ideas but i have seen absolutely nothing in this coaching set up to give me any confidence they can do better. I think if they had that in their locker we'd have seen Dunkley and Kipre improving over the course of the season but they are both about as accident prone as they have been all season - it doesn't exactly make me think Cook has it in him to improve them when he is saying the issues we have are not down to the coaching at all and it's the personnel not being good enough. Much like Caldwell before him in L1 - Cook had the best squad in the league and the biggest budget (along with runners up Blackburn) to work with and did it succesfully - but without such a massive advantage of simply having a starting 11 vastly superior to everyone else Cook doesn't appear to have the coaching ability to survive at this level.

I certainly wouldn't say Kipre is good on the ball, he so often long balls it out of defence and his long balls are just hopeful punts. Him and Dunkley are rubbish footballers but effective big stoppers that in days gone by were the order of the day for centre backs - but we are seeing football evolve to the point where you need you're centre backs to be able to play a little and i don't think either have it in them.

Another issue i'm starting to notice is even though we play 2 defensive midfielders the gap in front of our back four is often wide open, i think James and Morsy are 2 of our best players but maybe they don't compliment each other very well. Morsy has stopped playing the def midfield pivot role and has become more of an all action mid and James plays the same way - they are both good at that and chase the action down but neither are that positionally disciplined like say MacDonald who was anchored in front of the back 4 as a hard battling screening player the last time we were at this level. I think maybe part of our problem is we need a MacDonald type to sit in and then let the other midfielder have the freedom to chase the action like James and Morsy do while for all James and Morsys hard work i think they can both end up drawn out from that area and leave the back 4 potentially more exposed than should be possible with 2 def midfielders on. I love the ways James and Morsy play but i think having both of their eagerness to get involved and cover every blade of grass style may leave us a little too open at times. One thing i think worked really well when we briefly did it this season was the 4-1-4-1 - which had a in built screening player and pushed the usual def mid pair further forward with more freedom - the issue with that was we were using the utterly imobile Gibson as the screening player so it was never sustainable - we aren't bringing MacDonald back in so it's no point talking about that as a likely option so I think we may need to ask Morsy to be a little more restrained and let James roam while he sits back a little bit more. Hate to do that too him as he's best when he can be box to box but i think James can be more effective if given more freedom.

 

[Will_Shahane]

Burn only improved when Caldwell went and Joyce came in, Caldwell was asking him to try and play it out under pressure which he wasn't any good at and we were overall defensively a bit of a mess. Under Joyce he stopped asking big Dan to do stuff he wasn't comfortable with and for all his sins he got us drastically better organised at the back - some of that came we playing even more defensive of course but i think it was the change in our coaching that brought more out of Burn - unfortunately the improvement in defence didn't lead to an improvement in play or results.

I think that is possible for Kipre and Dunkley to improve under new coaches with fresh ideas but i have seen absolutely nothing in this coaching set up to give me any confidence they can do better. I think if they had that in their locker we'd have seen Dunkley and Kipre improving over the course of the season but they are both about as accident prone as they have been all season - it doesn't exactly make me think Cook has it in him to improve them when he is saying the issues we have are not down to the coaching at all and it's the personnel not being good enough. Much like Caldwell before him in L1 - Cook had the best squad in the league and the biggest budget (along with runners up Blackburn) to work with and did it succesfully - but without such a massive advantage of simply having a starting 11 vastly superior to everyone else Cook doesn't appear to have the coaching ability to survive at this level.

Yes, you are right about Burn, and he probably wasn't the best example to give. I still think that we should give Kipre and Dunkley the benefit of the doubt, though. If you look at the top 5 defences in the Championship (Leeds, Middlesbrough, Bristol City, Stoke and Sheffield United), each member of the back line of all five of those had at least one season of Championship experience under their belt before the beginning of this one. Furthermore, all of the defenders are older than Kipre. The only exception is Jay Dasilva of Bristol City, but he isn't even a mainstay in their side. I do think that experience should mitigate the number and severity of Dunkley and Kipre's mistakes, although I agree that it probably most likely won't eradicate them completely. However, it's necessary to remember that we're Wigan Athletic and are unlikely to ever have a perfect defender, especially given our current league position. So, if these two can just look to minimise their mistakes, I think that should be enough to secure their place in this side for the foreseeable future and make them good defenders for us.

I certainly wouldn't say Kipre is good on the ball, he so often long balls it out of defence and his long balls are just hopeful punts. Him and Dunkley are rubbish footballers but effective big stoppers that in days gone by were the order of the day for centre backs - but we are seeing football evolve to the point where you need you're centre backs to be able to play a little and i don't think either have it in them.

I find it difficult to be too harsh on Dunkley and Kipre in this respect given that they've had a poor and constantly changing midfield in front of them. Furthermore, because of the poor results we've had over the course of the season, the midfielders perhaps haven't been showing for the ball as much as they normally would do, and so the two centre-backs haven't had a great deal of options available to them. Perhaps an increase in confidence of the whole team will in turn increase the confidence of our centre-backs? It's a very difficult task for a 22 year old with no Championship experience to be thrust into a struggling side of low morale and be expected to play the ball out from the box and start the attack. Kipre has shown signs of capability; I went to the Wednesday game and I thought he was good at carrying the ball out of the box and always tried to get us going forward. You're probably right about Dunkley tbf.

Another issue i'm starting to notice is even though we play 2 defensive midfielders the gap in front of our back four is often wide open, i think James and Morsy are 2 of our best players but maybe they don't compliment each other very well. Morsy has stopped playing the def midfield pivot role and has become more of an all action mid and James plays the same way - they are both good at that and chase the action down but neither are that positionally disciplined like say MacDonald who was anchored in front of the back 4 as a hard battling screening player the last time we were at this level. I think maybe part of our problem is we need a MacDonald type to sit in and then let the other midfielder have the freedom to chase the action like James and Morsy do while for all James and Morsys hard work i think they can both end up drawn out from that area and leave the back 4 potentially more exposed than should be possible with 2 def midfielders on. I love the ways James and Morsy play but i think having both of their eagerness to get involved and cover every blade of grass style may leave us a little too open at times. One thing i think worked really well when we briefly did it this season was the 4-1-4-1 - which had a in built screening player and pushed the usual def mid pair further forward with more freedom - the issue with that was we were using the utterly imobile Gibson as the screening player so it was never sustainable - we aren't bringing MacDonald back in so it's no point talking about that as a likely option so I think we may need to ask Morsy to be a little more restrained and let James roam while he sits back a little bit more. Hate to do that too him as he's best when he can be box to box but i think James can be more effective if given more freedom.

Yeah I think you're spot on with this.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

Yes, you are right about Burn, and he probably wasn't the best example to give. I still think that we should give Kipre and Dunkley the benefit of the doubt, though. If you look at the top 5 defences in the Championship (Leeds, Middlesbrough, Bristol City, Stoke and Sheffield United), each member of the back line of all five of those had at least one season of Championship experience under their belt before the beginning of this one. Furthermore, all of the defenders are older than Kipre. The only exception is Jay Dasilva of Bristol City, but he isn't even a mainstay in their side. I do think that experience should mitigate the number and severity of Dunkley and Kipre's mistakes, although I agree that it probably most likely won't eradicate them completely. However, it's necessary to remember that we're Wigan Athletic and are unlikely to ever have a perfect defender, especially given our current league position. So, if these two can just look to minimise their mistakes, I think that should be enough to secure their place in this side for the foreseeable future and make them good defenders for us.



I find it difficult to be too harsh on Dunkley and Kipre in this respect given that they've had a poor and constantly changing midfield in front of them. Furthermore, because of the poor results we've had over the course of the season, the midfielders perhaps haven't been showing for the ball as much as they normally would do, and so the two centre-backs haven't had a great deal of options available to them. Perhaps an increase in confidence of the whole team will in turn increase the confidence of our centre-backs? It's a very difficult task for a 22 year old with no Championship experience to be thrust into a struggling side of low morale and be expected to play the ball out from the box and start the attack. Kipre has shown signs of capability; I went to the Wednesday game and I thought he was good at carrying the ball out of the box and always tried to get us going forward. You're probably right about Dunkley tbf.



Yeah I think you're spot on with this.

Those are fair points Will, the defence has not been protected defensively or helped to carry the ball out this season. Last season Max and Morsy did both of those things but this year the double pivot we used very effectivly has been totally thrown out of the window for long ball kick and chase and it's been disaterous at both ends of the pitch.

I think overall you never know how good a player is by seeing them under only one manager - different managers have the ability to make great players look bad and bad players into world beaters - if / when Cook goes it will be interesting to see what the next boss can get out of Dunkley and Kipre as like you say they have all of the attirbutes to be decent defenders but the constant lapses and mistakes are hard to take. l do wonder if they are perfect L1 centre backs where it's all long ball and battling, but at this level where there is more movement they are a little too old fashioned big stoppers rather than the modern day central defender.

 

[Will_Shahane]

l do wonder if they are perfect L1 centre backs where it's all long ball and battling, but at this level where there is more movement they are a little too old fashioned big stoppers rather than the modern day central defender.

I know what you mean, but then look at Sheff Utd. They have Egan and O'Connell as centre-backs, who I wouldn't say are the most gifted of footballers in terms of playing from the back but, like you said, are effective 'big stoppers'. They've had success at Championship level.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

I know what you mean, but then look at Sheff Utd. They have Egan and O'Connell as centre-backs, who I wouldn't say are the most gifted of footballers in terms of playing from the back but, like you said, are effective 'big stoppers'. They've had success at Championship level.

That is a fair point - if you have any method to the way you play the ball out your big stoppers wouldn't have to actually do that much passing as the midfield would give them options - we used to have that once upon a time but Cook decided it's better to just lump it to isolated Garner or Clarke and hope for the best. And he has the gaul to say that there is nothing wrong with the tactics.

 

[C_Latic]

That is a fair point - if you have any method to the way you play the ball out your big stoppers wouldn't have to actually do that much passing as the midfield would give them options - we used to have that once upon a time but Cook decided it's better to just lump it to isolated Garner or Clarke and hope for the best. And he has the gaul to say that there is nothing wrong with the tactics.

Difference is the manager. Chris Wilder would have our squad in the top half. He adjusts his setup to the squad he has and gets the best out of them. He’s on a different stratosphere to Cook in terms of managerial ability.