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Coronavirus

Yes it wasn't long ago that he said we had enough equipment and it was just a matter of logistics in getting them delivered.

I don't think he was telling the truth.

A politician that tells lies? I've never ever heard one tell anything but lies or at best avoid answering questions with a straight yes or no .
They must be trained to answer a question with a question
 
A politician that tells lies? I've never ever heard one tell anything but lies or at best avoid answering questions with a straight yes or no .
They must be trained to answer a question with a question

Theresa May was unbelievable at answering a question without answering a question. Probably why everything she touched was a disaster. Good skill though
 
Problem for me is every promise they’ve made about tests or PPE has been reneged on. Instead of giving factual and realistic deadlines, it’s saving grace and making them look more amateurish. Luckily the majority of people have very short memories, I suspect Hancock will face the chop after this and the others like Patel (as she’s pro Brexit) will survive after her disaster.

That’s before we get to all the planning and tactics of dealing with, it felt to me like the government realised this was as big a problem and risk as soon as we did.

Fair play if you think they’ve done well, I can’t believe how badly they’ve handled and communicated it. It’s been closer to Trump than Merkel, and I like the way Merkel has dealt with it. Macron even admitted the French weren’t prepared for it - honesty. Hancock wouldn’t admit that this week


I think they have done very well in a situation that is unknown in world history (ie.We know what the problem is, and have a society that wants to save as many as possible, but doesn't know how to). I would caution against comparing country's, there are too many variables, not least it isn't over yet.
 
I think they have done very well in a situation that is unknown in world history (ie.We know what the problem is, and have a society that wants to save as many as possible, but doesn't know how to). I would caution against comparing country's, there are too many variables, not least it isn't over yet.

That’s very true about comparisons but naturally we want benchmarks. Don’t take this the wrong way, as a general theme I find a lot of people who have a positive opinion of the govt aren’t comparing to other countries and their handling.

A pandemic is a pandemic, it’s damage limitation and that’s subjective. But I stand by, they knew we weren’t prepared to deal with a pandemic and there’s no strategy.

I said in another post, the public and key private sector need a strategy planning session for these for the future. The only thing I’ve been impressed with is the dedication of the health workers and how the private sector are able to turn things on (or trying) to support.
 
That’s very true about comparisons but naturally we want benchmarks. Don’t take this the wrong way, as a general theme I find a lot of people who have a positive opinion of the govt aren’t comparing to other countries and their handling.

A pandemic is a pandemic, it’s damage limitation and that’s subjective. But I stand by, they knew we weren’t prepared to deal with a pandemic and there’s no strategy.

I said in another post, the public and key private sector need a strategy planning session for these for the future. The only thing I’ve been impressed with is the dedication of the health workers and how the private sector are able to turn things on (or trying) to support.

So i guess the question would be what could have been done differently. Testing apart we've pretty much followed the path and timelines of all the major European countries (including Germany).
Currently our deaths per mill are still lower than most other major European countries - the stand out being Germany (unless they have VAG doing their figures).

Lockdown earlier or more harshly - fine but their is a cost to that as well and ultimately it's all a balance between deaths v hospital capacity v economic damage.
 
Personally I think the government and Hancock are doing a pretty decent job in extremely difficult times, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that. Still if people disagree that is their choice. All I will say is it is always easier to sit on the sidelines highlighting faults than having to make the decisions, we all know that from football.

Clearly errors have been made but nobody is perfect. Too much of the criticism is for the sake of criticising for me. When we know the picture and can properly compare to other countries, like every where else, they'll have some things bang on, and then completely wrong.
 
When I shop I try to avoid anything that is made in China.

Unfortunately sometimes it's impossible. I would rather pay more for something made in the UK.
Kind of where I'm at too now, quite difficult not to with some items though - light bulbs for example .
 
So i guess the question would be what could have been done differently. Testing apart we've pretty much followed the path and timelines of all the major European countries (including Germany).
Currently our deaths per mill are still lower than most other major European countries - the stand out being Germany (unless they have VAG doing their figures).

Lockdown earlier or more harshly - fine but their is a cost to that as well and ultimately it's all a balance between deaths v hospital capacity v economic damage.

I agree with the trade off between economy and health, there will come a point the economic impact costs more lives than the C-19.

In terms of Germany, I think there are differences - they may not huge and we’d never prevent a pandemic. The point for me is that I believe the handling by the government has cost more lives than if we had handled it well.

Anyway, when it’s all done let’s look back at the U.K. versus Germany to see who did a better job as I think the two countries are culturally quite similar and have similar resource to be able to deal with these things better (in theory). The U.K. seems to have too much pride to admit failure and learn off others. Germany have a bigger population so we need to look at it relatively speaking, that said we have a much smaller land mass which is to our disadvantage.
 
Germany have tested 1,728,357 people. Many of these were early on, which helped them identify infection patients, and isolate them.

We have conducted 438,991 test, with most of them in the last two weeks. It's too little, too late. Boris dropped the ball.

It's no coincidence, either. SK and NZ did the same as Germany, and have extremely low numbers.
 
I'm with dan and heath on this, looks to me - and I think it is reasonable what is being said, all will come out in the wash, at some point, later on - that they have been caught with their pants down on several fronts.

They have seemed calmer without the buffoon, but not locking down the week before and allowing Cheltenham, looks to me to be a major mistake.

The lack of ppe could be understandable if they hadn't kept saying they were ramping up this that and the other, only not to deliver. Plenty of companies would have turned their hand to this and only this afternoon the bbc interviewed the head of the protective clothing industry (worldwide) and she said she has been begging the gov to use them, not to keep banging on about just fashion labels.

I am not sure on testing, I am no expert, others seem to have managed it and Boris shot the bolt a bit talking a few weeks back about it being the key, only for the tests to not then be available. They obviously changed tact for tests, only to realise what they thought they were buying / were having developed didn't work.

Some of the briefings I have felt like they have talked to us like adults, but very many, they have been condescending and not really answered what we could be being told.

I don't think Hancock looks at all at ease with all this. Gove was looking confident, Raab, albeit dull (no problem on that, he's not an entertainer) has improved considerably. All in all, I've felt we've been far better off without Bullshit Boris at least.

Time will tell, I hope when we look back, those of us doubting are completely and utterly wrong.
 
I grew up hating the Germans, it was the British thing that at school were taught to hate them which was hardly discouraged from family.

Yet as I’ve got older, I prefer the way the Germans deal with many things and actually don’t mind Merkel bar the odd mistake.

Taking Heathfields points above, I think this article pulls out some subtle but key differences. The part that resonates with me, is our very own clown wants to be Churchill mk2, the Germans was to deal with it scientifically and with humanity. The second I admire is that Merkel warned 60-70% of the population would get it - dealing with it like adults.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/gdpr-consent/?next_url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/04/13/where-germany-had-success-fighting-coronavirus-britain-failed/

Just to add, I’m personally not jumping on every mistake, though it may feel like it from my posts. I can accept mistakes to a point, I’d rather see a politician admit it than worm their way around a question when asked about it.
 
I'm no expert on PPE but the press are taking the line it's all the same thing and anyone with a shed could make it, and that's simply not true.

Normal clothes makers can't produce the one time or thicker multi use plastic pinnies and gloves. Plastics companies can, but that means a major retooling from what they current produce.

Normal clothes makers can produce gowns, coats, hats etc but the vast majority will only be able to produce them as a one time basis, or slightly more protected washable. Few companies will have access to the tech required to make them fully waterproof for example.

Same goes with testing, we've spunked millions on tests that simply do not give a reliable result - yet capacity is now up to 35k a day on reliable tests - now it's the logistics of getting people tested.

In neither event do we have the existing market place that Germany had with tests, or China and others with PPE.

Hancock has been woefully unclear as he's tried to play politician but the one true thing he's said, has now seen further criticism.

We can't magic them from nowhere. The press are whipping tensions up by bullshitting and implying we can or should've done.

The Beeb have had one Dr on (looked remarkably like the ICU head I unfortunately met last year) stating that they didn't have a single issue with PPE supply. That's the only one I've seen saying no problems. We've had 3/4 (and further unsourced (and the BBC have made a retraction tonight on an earlier supply story as well)) stating doom and gloom.

We are delivering plenty now - just not - it seems - to the right areas based on their own use and demand.

People also shouldn't confuse care homes in this, I don't believe they are part of the normal NHS procurement anyway - they handle that themselves (so whatever points I agree with on how that side of 'care' is funded and how it should be more joined up), supply there isn't the Gov's fault either.
 
I'm no expert on PPE but the press are taking the line it's all the same thing and anyone with a shed could make it, and that's simply not true.

Normal clothes makers can't produce the one time or thicker multi use plastic pinnies and gloves. Plastics companies can, but that means a major retooling from what they current produce.

Normal clothes makers can produce gowns, coats, hats etc but the vast majority will only be able to produce them as a one time basis, or slightly more protected washable. Few companies will have access to the tech required to make them fully waterproof for example.


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Which is making my argument for me. The Gov have turned to Burberry etc (no problem with good companies coming forward to help) and not the organisation I mentioned above.

They could and should have liaised a lot quicker.

It is ok people playing semantics, or spinning the truth, I listen to those on the front line, the people risking their lives to save lives, and there are clearly massive problems.

10 years of austerity being the first place to look for the reasons why, the first but not the only.

Still, care workers will have badges soon. Fucking badges. :slap:
 
The BBC's live ticker is now going into meltdown because we've wrongly released 6 prisoners in an OPEN PRISON.

This comes a couple of hours after they were harping reports two twathead charities were looking to sue the Gov because low risk prisoners weren't being released quick enough.

200.webp
 
People also shouldn't confuse care homes in this, I don't believe they are part of the normal NHS procurement anyway - they handle that themselves (so whatever points I agree with on how that side of 'care' is funded and how it should be more joined up), supply there isn't the Gov's fault either.

Good God. Genuinely shocked you think that. They haven't even dropped the VAT on the PPE, but not only that, we are all under the Gov's care, during this extreme time. People are dying for the lack of basic equipment and/or funds to buy them. And all this for the most vulnerable people in society.

Are people now so immune to the level of suffering, poverty and the damage caused by austerity that we think it is just every man / woman for themselves now?

Of course the Gov is to blame for waiting weeks before coming up with some rescue package for social care, it is their fault they are on their knees in the first place.
 
So how is everyone coping?
I'm going to work as usual all be it reduced hours. We supply medical oxygen and Industrial gases. I have a bit of structure in my life although I'm working in weird conditions at work, premises locked and dealing with people at distance outside.



The highlights of the week are the trips to supermarkets on way home. Luckily the one I visit are quietish. Tescos and Aldi in Stratford, and Waitrose if I have to behind my flat.

At home its just me and the Mrs. We get out for long walks at weekends. Did 50km walks over bankholiday weekend. Living in Alcester helps, nice folk, and 3 mins from the door is beautiful open countryside. Really missing interaction though with family and friends. Loads of pubs here, quite surreal to see them now. My flat overlooks an empty High st.

Find I'm drinking a lot now. Quite uneasy about future, and I'm pretty uneasy about staying in UK for long periods. Had a lot of travel plans now cancelled and got hassles of getting refunds.

Not sleeping well at all. Mentally its hard. Trying to put things in perspective as I'm lucky to have work.

I have parents in 80's which is a worry. I do shopping for them, and see them to drop it on there doorstep, and step away 4metres..tough.

Really can't see anything changing much this year.
 
Which is making my argument for me. The Gov have turned to Burberry etc (no problem with good companies coming forward to help) and not the organisation I mentioned above.

They could and should have liaised a lot quicker.

It is ok people playing semantics, or spinning the truth, I listen to those on the front line, the people risking their lives to save lives, and there are clearly massive problems.

10 years of austerity being the first place to look for the reasons why, the first but not the only.

Still, care workers will have badges soon. Fucking badges. :slap:

Not really mate. Admittedly I didn't see that interview, but I'd amazed if the NHS wasn't already dealing with a company like that - charge dependent admittedly. I'll hold my counsel there - would love a link?

The likes of Burberry with existing contacts and a greater ability to retool are in a better position to react quickly. I get what you are saying, but it doesn't prove your point.

What it actually shows is why the Gov have been right to prioritise the likes of Burberry first BUT the failure has then been chasing up those companies who can't supply that quality/quantity but can chip in with single use or limited washable which could serve as a simple tide over to help buy time.

I mentioned a shoe company last week I think who never heard back from the civil service, so had to furlough and close but they could've produced 500-1000 of something per day once they were up and running.

The Cambridge? labs who expect to be up and running next week needed a month and a 30K investment to retool for 'have you got it now' tests - they believe they can do 50K a day on their own.

But it takes time when you're basically starting from zero and as you rightly reference austerity and cuts - you can't then double criticise on an Act of God for not having more staff to get to more people etc.

And again no, 'some' have massive problems and we hear from them constantly (including the retraction tonight because the BBC got it wrong) and we hear a lot about care homes etc that don't fall under the same procurement umbrella.

We don't hear a hell of a lot more from those hospitals and care homes who are fine. Because that doesn't make a headline does it.

100% with you on the badge idea though, that's fucking ridiculous.
 
Good God. Genuinely shocked you think that. They haven't even dropped the VAT on the PPE, but not only that, we are all under the Gov's care, during this extreme time. People are dying for the lack of basic equipment and/or funds to buy them. And all this for the most vulnerable people in society.

Are people now so immune to the level of suffering, poverty and the damage caused by austerity that we think it is just every man / woman for themselves now?

Of course the Gov is to blame for waiting weeks before coming up with some rescue package for social care, it is their fault they are on their knees in the first place.

We're not debating VAT on PPE are we mate? Or do you think, given our system of democracy, that MP's should waste a few readings and 12 odd hours on a bill to drop VAT to £0 instead of doing what they are now - attempting to massively play catch up and get a grip on this?

Fact is, unless I'm wrong and I don't believe I am having listened to people who run care homes and mobile care workers, they are private companies and don't come under NHS procurement, so issues in them finding PPE is down to their management and their networks. Can't fault the Gov for that.

You can argue there should be a greater tie in, but again, do we want MP's wasting days on debate and readings at the moment to make that happen?

Should the Gov be doing more to help open up lines of supply. Yes. But if the Gov prioritised the private sector here over the NHS, what would the reaction be?

This is criticism for the sake of criticism and headlines to do a Daily Mail and get all angry. Every one for themselves? How is rightly pointing out different priorities and programmes evidence of that?

People aren't dying because we don't have the funds for this, whether NHS or private homes, it's supply and distribution dude.

Sorry mate, wrongly few cared about this previously - as you know Claire used to be a mobile herself for the elderly and was paid fuck all. But there's no point in moaning that we don't already have a better system in place and it should've been put in place in February and that blame should instantly go to the Gov regardless - when this wasn't cared about by the vast majority previously who kept voting for austerity.

It is what it is....no need to look for a scapegoat permanently when it's the voting public themselves who are to blame. And whatever the Gov at the moment, the medical & science advice wouldn't have changed. We still wouldn't have had the industry in place for testing and manufacture and we'd still be battling against supply/distribution for PPE.

Raab, Boris, Thatch, Major, Bliar, or Jeremy Clarkson - it's the same questions with no magic answer.

I completely agree, this HAS to lead to a complete re-evalution of the NHS and social care in their country, let alone emergency measures to self produce in time of need, but in the middle of this is not the point to do it.