Coronavirus vaccine

[shotshy]

This does seem to have become a brexit thread with the same hatred of anything eu without the basis of fact.

no thinking or investigation just believing the media. It is obvious that the eu has done a poor job on vaccinations and some of this is about covering backsides.

the Pharma industry has been 'streamlining' its supply chains for many years meaning it has been closing factories everywhere looking for profit margins (i have worked on closing a minimum of 10 large uk and european plants). This was a disaster waiting to happen, no government intervention to guarantee supply of any medicines.
therefore it is a falsehood to say that any country in the eu owns any medicines or medical supplies as big pharma is above government and totally international As can be seen by their profit and tax dealings.

medicine production is not local and most medicine will be made or supplied from another country. This the case for the usa, europe and many other countries. One Pharma may have supply chains linking 50 other countries. Most biologicals and vaccines have been produced in belgium and indeed that was/is our main supply chain irrelevant of anything the eu or uk could influence. This is the world of international big Business calling the shots.

as for the reported 'raid' on factories by the inspectorates' talk about sensationalism.
this is the norm in pharma. The inspectorates have the legal right to enter any licensed site at any time of their choosing and demand access to any part of the process and documentation. They then have the power to talk to anyone and that person or document must be in front of them within one hour (some exceptions). The inspectorate can remove the license and stop all production at a site that they deem contravene their rules.
Mostly these are planned inspections but all sites will be set up to expect a 'surprise' visit at any time night or day.
The media gives the impression that all countries or areas have facilities and obviously know nothing of the industry. Where were they when our factories and jobs were being removed from the uk and europe.

Having had view of the AZ - EU contract, it appears to the layman that AZ are correct in the interpretation.
“Best reasonable efforts” is quite clear.
The EU seem to view that phrase as a guarantee.
They claim their 300 million doses, to be delivered immediately after they hav approved it.
I assume if they don’t approve, then AZ are free to sell elsewhere when it’s manufactured.

 

[Jerryattrick]

Having had view of the AZ - EU contract, it appears to the layman that AZ are correct in the interpretation.
“Best reasonable efforts” is quite clear.
The EU seem to view that phrase as a guarantee.
They claim their 300 million doses, to be delivered immediately after they hav approved it.
I assume if they don’t approve, then AZ are free to sell elsewhere when it’s manufactured.

best and reasonable is open to interpretation by a court. If AZ did not have any source for the vaccine then it would obviously stand. However when the uk had problems the vaccine came from belgium so you can argue that now AZ could do the same sourcing from the uk plant. That is the petty argument. They ordered from an international company AZ not from a national factory. Good or bad.

this is simply a product of globalism and big companies doing what they want without any national control. It was always obvious what would happen in the situation of pandemic or war. These risks were never in the equation in takeovers and closures.
successive governments have not given a f about the closure of factories or job losses and supporting the move to monopolies and are now pretending they had nothing to do with it.

eu v uk v the rest of the world - divide and rule. No lessons will be learnt.

 

[ThreeSixes]

I don't believe any reasonable half intelligent person believes that about Labour in 2008, just as no reasonable intelligent person really believes Johnson has 100k people's blood on his hands.

Was thinking the same. I can't remember anyone accusing Labour of being culpable re the credit crunch

 

[Jerryattrick]

Was thinking the same. I can't remember anyone accusing Labour of being culpable re the credit crunch

were you asleep lol. Was brought up at the time as proof of labour overspending and was still being used at the last election.

 

[LancsGordoRoad]

I don't believe that you don't get angry about things you can't change!

Universal Police Training Book, Appendix A :

The Serenity Prayer

 

[markinkent]

I’d prefer any spare vaccine to be sent to poor third world countries not some of the largest economies in the world.
We know that Europe will catch up. Many African countries have not even got started.

I was expecting that comment and to be honest I don't have an answer. Who decides who to prioritise first. Is an EU citizen any more of a priority than an African. I would hate to answer that question.

My point was once we have vaccinated the highest priority in the UK perhaps we should share with another countries most vulnerable rather than work our way down the list.

No easy answer but I would hate for the UK to pull up the drawbridge and say we're alright jack. Next time we might need the help.

There is a beautiful memorial in Dungeness to a group of young american airmen (late teens/early 20s) whose plane crashed off dungeness. They came to our aid in dark times when the reality was the US were not at risk of Nazi invasion. Sometimes helping others is just the right thing to do.

 

[Buddha]

Universal Police Training Book, Appendix A :

The Serenity Prayer

lol. I've met a few coppers who must have missed that bit!

 

[Gills 58]

I don't believe any reasonable half intelligent person believes that about Labour in 2008, just as no reasonable intelligent person really believes Johnson has 100k people's blood on his hands.

I'd like you to be right but the mantra about Labour went on for years, unchecked in the media. Didn't help that many in the Labour party feebly let it go on too.

 

[Nobby_66]

Lots of unreasonable and undereducated people who do, nobs. It's depressing but it's true.

I'd agree that overspending under Labour was ridiculous, in my job anyway. The place was awash with money and got wasted in the name of a "if we don't spend it, we won't get it next year" sort of principle. Under DC, it went completely the other way. A middle ground would have been nice.
Even with that sort of overspending, you could never blame a single government for what happened in 2008. As I alluded to the other day, all governments piss someone off to varying degrees, its just the Tories turn at the moment so unfortunately, its people like yourself, 58 etc, that will be most pissed off.
I know you don't believe what I said about not getting angry about what you cant change but its true. Yes, things piss me off or annoy me but anger is such a negative emotion. My Dad (ex copper) gave me the "greasy pole" advice when I first joined the job and it really has stuck with me.

 

[ThreeSixes]

I was expecting that comment and to be honest I don't have an answer. Who decides who to prioritise first. Is an EU citizen any more of a priority than an African. I would hate to answer that question.


.

It's not a difficult question from a facts basis. 60% of Africans are under 25. 20% of Europeans are over 65. Coronavirus is 100's of times more deadly for people over 60 than people under 40. Based on those facts, Europe should be more of a priority initially

 

[shotshy]

It's not a difficult question from a facts basis. 60% of Africans are under 25. 20% of Europeans are over 65. Coronavirus is 100's of times more deadly for people over 60 than people under 40. Based on those facts, Europe should be more of a priority initially

After watching France 24 this morning, it appears that covid hasn’t even hit Lebanon yet.
Thousands protesting in the streets and literally not a mask in sight, not the protesters or the army and police.
All very strange considering.

 

[Nobby_66]

I'd like you to be right but the mantra about Labour went on for years, unchecked in the media. Didn't help that many in the Labour party feebly let it go on too.

Its that bloody media again isn't it? Anything in recent news remind you of that? They feed off it and, in fact, feed the hysteria. Thats the point I was making yesterday about their constant, daily questioning about when restrictions will be lifted. They will keep on badgering in the name of peoples rights to freedom but as soon as restrictions are lifted, they'll scream that it was too early.
As I said above, eat out to help out was blamed, in the press, for the September rise in infection rates. This has now been proved wrong. They won't be gutted, they won't print corrections or apologies, just move onto the next story they want you to believe. Unfortunately, there will never be an inquiry into how they reported this pandemic.

 

[markinkent]

It's not a difficult question from a facts basis. 60% of Africans are under 25. 20% of Europeans are over 65. Coronavirus is 100's of times more deadly for people over 60 than people under 40. Based on those facts, Europe should be more of a priority initially

Good argument.

 

[Buddha]

Good argument.

It wouldn't be bad if you felt there'd be some consistency from those presenting
that argument, and that when the facts show that Africa should be the priority (for instance, with for providing medical assistance for things such as HIV/AIDS, malaria, tuberculosis, acute respiratory infections and diarrheal disease) they'd be still arguing the same thing.

Then it might carry some weight.

 

[markinkent]

It wouldn't be bad if you felt there'd be some consistency from those presenting
that argument, and that when the facts show that Africa should be the priority (for instance, with for providing medical assistance for things such as HIV/AIDS, malaria, tuberculosis, acute respiratory infections and diarrheal disease) they'd be still arguing the same thing.

Then it might carry some weight.

I get your point but I am just commenting on this particular situation

 

[Buddha]

I get your point but I am just commenting on this particular situation

Yeah, well you're right. And so is 3x6. There are also other factors that mean covid isn't hitting Africa as bad as it is other places in the world.

For a start there is the climate, which helps to reduce the spread of the virus. Another thing (connected to the life expectancy thing and the smaller proportion of elderly people) is that those who do reach retirement age tend to move away from urban areas.

 

[Baghdad_Rob]

Yeah, well you're right. And so is 3x6. There are also other factors that mean covid isn't hitting Africa as bad as it is other places in the world.

For a start there is the climate, which helps to reduce the spread of the virus. Another thing (connected to the life expectancy thing and the smaller proportion of elderly people) is that those who do reach retirement age tend to move away from urban areas.

Quite a few African countries don't have the resources to aggressively test people so the numbers reported are probably under reported.

Quite a few countries have their population spread over a wider area with little contact between the few large cities and the villages that scatter the rest of the country.

Quite possibly a number of people who died of Covid might have been blamed on tuberculosis if people live outside the cities and can't be tested.

 

[ramager]

Just a thought. How about good old blighty gain some moral high ground by slowing our roll out to help the EU vaccinate the most at need in Europe.

If anyone replies that British people are more important then that will be a very sad state of affairs.

The UK government have done brilliantly with vaccine procurement and rollout. The EU haven't.

Shall we play politics or help those most in need ?

Next time it might be us that needs the help of our nearest neighbours !

I want us to get ourselves sorted first - then we should offer as much assistance as we are capable of to the rest of the world. Should that include EU - possibly. It could certainly be seen as an olive branch after the harsh words exchanged during brexit. Problem is every dose we send there is one less we can send to countries with a more genuine need. The EU are a well resourced organisation that have got themselves in this mess due to proper incompetence, They've consistently been behind the curve on their vaccine programme, especially as they didn't invest in, or check up on the progress of their plants (not to mention the excessive time it took to approve the vaccine). Seems they thought it would just magically come together, it was only at the last moment they realised the scale of the problem. They could have had UK onboard for the entire scheme if they'd not been so unreasonable with their demands for us to join them early in the summer.

Without wishing to be political, I think one of the main problems with the EU is that like a fat American, it is simply too big.

 

[shotshy]

I want us to get ourselves sorted first - then we should offer as much assistance as we are capable of to the rest of the world. Should that include EU - possibly. It could certainly be seen as an olive branch after the harsh words exchanged during brexit. Problem is every dose we send there is one less we can send to countries with a more genuine need. The EU are a well resourced organisation that have got themselves in this mess due to proper incompetence, They've consistently been behind the curve on their vaccine programme, especially as they didn't invest in, or check up on the progress of their plants (not to mention the excessive time it took to approve the vaccine). Seems they thought it would just magically come together, it was only at the last moment they realised the scale of the problem. They could have had UK onboard for the entire scheme if they'd not been so unreasonable with their demands for us to join them early in the summer.

Without wishing to be political, I think one of the main problems with the EU is that like a fat American, it is simply too big.

Part of the problem in Europe is under staffing at the EMA in Amsterdam.
When it relocated after Brexit kicked in, they estimated a loss of about 25% of staff who wouldn’t relocate from London.
The fact after the event is that it’s at least 50% and I’ve seen written that it could have been as high as 70% although they would never publicly admit to that.
The assumption that most would move from London was way off the mark.
I like Amsterdam but personally wouldn’t want to relocate my family there so don’t blame them.

 

[markinkent]

I want us to get ourselves sorted first - then we should offer as much assistance as we are capable of to the rest of the world. Should that include EU - possibly.

At what point are we sorted ? Everyone or just the top 4 categories.

My question was should we help the most at risk in Europe (or anywhere in the world) before we start deploying it further in the UK.

Its really an ethical question of what is right.

Is it right that I get it (53 with underlying health condition) OR a high risk person in Spain.

I'd be happy to delay my vaccine for someone more at risk.

It would be nice to start to rebuild trust and goodwill with our closest neighbours after the dangerous rhetoric of Brexit.