Coronavirus vaccine

[LockdownLife]

I've just read an article about the relative tightness and losseness of societies and the effect that has had on the fight against Covid. It doesn't support or oppose any particular angle (Nobby might feel a little vindicated ) I thought it interesting. Might influence our thinking in the future?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/c...aking-culture-covid-deaths-societies-pandemic

It's a shame they didn't release the figures of 'looseness' for each country. Would have been nice to do a vague check for correlation between that and covid rates/deaths.

 

[LancsGordoRoad]

GET YOUR JAB.............

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10221489287758858

 

[Gills 58]

Out of interest, what are people's views on Piers Corbyn being arrested for, amongst other things, issuing leaflets comparing the vaccination campaign to the mass extermination camp of Auschwitz.

Oppression by the state and restricting freedom of speech?

Jerry? Others?

Genuine question.

 

[Jerryattrick]

Out of interest, what are people's views on Piers Corbyn being arrested for, amongst other things, issuing leaflets comparing the vaccination campaign to the mass extermination camp of Auschwitz.

Oppression by the state and restricting freedom of speech?

Jerry? Others?

Genuine question.

Interesting case isnt it with so many discussion points.

you could argue that this insignificant group are being given oxygen by the media sensationalising it. Just how many leaflets were given out and how many people even saw it, now millions can see it.
also, sensationalising the cartoon when in fact the dopes who produced it were just (in their eyes) trying to show that you should not always trust authority. In their eyes they are doing a public service. isnt this just a democratic though misguided act of freedom of speech.

the criteria should always be, is this aimed at hurting anyone or condoning violence. Depending on your viewpoint you could argue that some people may in fact die if they dont take the vaccine which outweighs the anti vaxers freedom of speech.

i have always believed in no platform for fascists (real ones not woke interpretation) so I am a hypocrite on this subject.

the issue is as always, what happens when those minorities calling out a warning are actually telling the truth.

my wife is also cautionary but like me had her jab yesterday.

 

[Buddha]

Out of interest, what are people's views on Piers Corbyn being arrested for, amongst other things, issuing leaflets comparing the vaccination campaign to the mass extermination camp of Auschwitz.

Oppression by the state and restricting freedom of speech?

Jerry? Others?

Genuine question.

Yeah, I kind of think it is really.

Don't get me wrong, I think Piers Corbyn is absolutely nuts and is a bit of a joke. And that his suggestion here that the vaccine programme is comparable to Aushwitz is offensive and ridiculous. But should he be arrested for saying/writng it, my instinct says he should not.

For a start, his arrest and subsequent media interest will have publicised his leaflet far more than it would have been without arrest. We're talking about it now but only because he's been arrested.

Secondly, and to be honest I'd need to read the leaflet before committing to this but, I'm not necessarily sure that Corbyn's suggestion is anti-Semitic. It wasn't just the Jews who were sent to Aushwitz, and my initial impression is that Corbyn is making a comparison (albeit a shit and offensive one) between methods of state control. I'm not sure his comparison is really about genocide or anti-Semitism. As I said though, I'd need to actually read the leaflet first.

All in all it seems like a load of old shit. The kind of people who are going to listen to and be influenced by the likes of Piers Corbyn are the kind of wide-eyed conspiraloons who already pretty much lost causes! I can't see his arguments convincing any reasonable or rational people. So what's the danger? Makes me wonder why they've bothered to arrest him...

 

[Gills 58]

Glad she's had her vaccine. I'm envious tbh.

Is she carrying out Bill Gate's instructions yet?
:-)

My police contact says these "freedom" lover anti vaxxers are a real problem in central London. Their right to spout this shit is especially bad when police resources are extra stretched atm. Spitting at the officers isn't too nice either.

Btw, I was glad Mayor Khan successfully called for the BLM protest not to go ahead in London last year given the Covid crisis made it inappropriate timing.

 

[Gills 58]

P Corbyn might be likened to some door to door salesperson who encourages people to make decisions that are dangerous for their health. "Freedom"? If they were actually selling faulty goods rather than ideas then there would be solutions. Why the difference?

 

[Jerryattrick]

P Corbyn might be likened to some door to door salesperson who encourages people to make decisions that are dangerous for their health. "Freedom"? If they were actually selling faulty goods rather than ideas then there would be solutions. Why the difference?

probable be around who decides that the goods are faulty lol. Its a grey area along with the boy who cried wolf scenario. There is no correct answer or maybe someone can give us some wisdom.
bit like - my wifes uncle was telling me about the massive hockey games in 1960's india where groups of the aggressive crowd would jump around annoying everyone and the people would call the police to do something. The police reluctantly came over and started sorting out the troublemakers using their long sticks to hand out beatings. The people who had been angry at the troublemakers now turned on the police for sorting the problem out.

 

[Vambogills]

If he had almost any other second name it wouldn't even get a mention.

 

[Buddha]

P Corbyn might be likened to some door to door salesperson who encourages people to make decisions that are dangerous for their health. "Freedom"? If they were actually selling faulty goods rather than ideas then there would be solutions. Why the difference?

There are standards and regulations for goods. If the goods don't meet the standards then you have some rights as the customer. Although if you buy goods on the black market you have to accept that these standards and regulations don't apply.

Are goods and ideas the same though?

Would you like standards and regulations for ideas? And if you would, who would decide upon what these standards and regulations look like?

 

[ThreeSixes]

Secondly, and to be honest I'd need to read the leaflet before committing to this but, I'm not necessarily sure that Corbyn's suggestion is anti-Semitic. It wasn't just the Jews who were sent to Aushwitz, and my initial impression is that Corbyn is making a comparison (albeit a shit and offensive one) between methods of state control. I'm not sure his comparison is really about genocide or anti-Semitism. As I said though, I'd need to actually read the leaflet first.

...

It's an image rather than text. It is a drawing of the gates of Aushwitz which has changed the wording on the gate. It is therefore comparing the vaccination programme to the gassing of people, and was sent to people, including Jewish families, on National Holocaust week.

I don't know whether the arrest was because of the image (hate crime) or the anti-vaxx message. I think a leaflet saying "are you happy that this has been tested enough...." would be ok imo.

 

[Buddha]

It's an image rather than text. It is a drawing of the gates of Aushwitz which has changed the wording on the gate. It is therefore comparing the vaccination programme to the gassing of people, and was sent to people, including Jewish families, on National Holocaust week.

I don't know whether the arrest was because of the image (hate crime) or the anti-vaxx message. I think a leaflet saying "are you happy that this has been tested enough...." would be ok imo.

If you're right about the leaflet being sent out during National Holocaust week then it was very insensitive timing if nothing else.

I'm more comfortable with people being arrested for hate crimes than I am with people being arrested for disseminating anti-government conspiracy theories.

 

[jokerman]

Had a student come down to me at the end of a lecture yesterday. We were looking at relativist (it's all custom and convention; go with the flow) and universalist (there are some things true and right at every time and place) ways of thinking. I'd used man/woman ideas to illustrate some of the implications and talked about transsexual, bisexual, asexual etc. in contemporary public affairs. The student said I should not use the word transsexual. We don't use it now as it is associated with prejudice and persecution. We use transgender. Who says? I asked. She said she did a lot of work with the campus GBLTQ. Oh, so they say, says I. Yes, she said. Well first, do not tell people what words they can and cannot say. I am sovereign over my own language (pol theory class). And second, thank you for raising a point which I will bear in mind. This is a stark account. It was a friendly exchange.

I will not use a word which I know will give offence to someone I'm talking with. I will not be told what I can and cannot say. I will not tell someone else what they can and cannot say, although I may tell them they're pissing me off and why.

That's my starting point for any discussion of what people should be "allowed" to say. I think we're seriously off course with the idea of not allowing certain words to be said and ideas to be expressed. The consequences of free speech can be hurtful, infuriating, and damaging. There are many things which people should not say. However, the costs of accepting that it is ok to deny the right of people to say them are far bigger.

 

[Gills 58]

If you're right about the leaflet being sent out during National Holocaust week then it was very insensitive timing if nothing else.

I'm more comfortable with people being arrested for hate crimes than I am with people being arrested for disseminating anti-government conspiracy theories.

Wasn't anti Semitic by P Corbyn. His implication was that the Government are exterminating the people by giving them the vaccine just as Jews and others were exterminated by the Nazis.

He stated the "work is good" sign on the entrance to Auschwitz equated to the Government's vaccine being good for us.

 

[Nobby_66]

Out of interest, what are people's views on Piers Corbyn being arrested for, amongst other things, issuing leaflets comparing the vaccination campaign to the mass extermination camp of Auschwitz.

Oppression by the state and restricting freedom of speech?

Jerry? Others?

Genuine question.

"being arrested for, amongst other things, issuing leaflets comparing the vaccination campaign to the mass extermination camp of Auschwitz"

I'd be interested to hear what the "other things" were. Was he actually arrested for the leaflets (a clear sec 5 or even 4 public order act offence) or the "other things".
Its hard to comment without the full facts and context.
(I'm on nights, tired and can't be bothered to look it up )

 

[Nobby_66]

Wasn't anti Semitic by P Corbyn. His implication was that the Government are exterminating the people by giving them the vaccine just as Jews and others were exterminated by the Nazis.

He stated the "work is good" sign on the entrance to Auschwitz equated to the Government's vaccine being good for us.

The quote is "work sets you free" (Arbeit macht frei)

 

[Gills 58]

The quote is "work sets you free" (Arbeit macht frei)

Thanks for correcting me. I'd been too lazy to check the precise wording.

Arrested for "Malicious communications and public nuisance" apparently.

It is tempting to deny freedom of speech in a crisis. It can be the thin end of the wedge. On the other hand I do think this type of misinformation is extremely dangerous.

Of course, some will think Corbyn is telling the truth (ffs).

Ultimately, for me in this situation, individual freedom comes second to the safety of the public in general, given that the virus transmits.

 

[Buddha]

Wasn't anti Semitic by P Corbyn. His implication was that the Government are exterminating the people by giving them the vaccine just as Jews and others were exterminated by the Nazis.

He stated the "work is good" sign on the entrance to Auschwitz equated to the Government's vaccine being good for us.

This is exactly the impression I formed from quicly reading a couple of news reports about the arrest.

It certainly doesn't seem to be anti-Semitic though the timing is very unfortunate. If it was an oversight then it's still poor, but if he deliberately released it during Holocaust week that's pretty shocking.

If it really is as simple as changing the words from, "Arbeit macht frei", to, "Vaccines are safe path to freedom", then I really don't know what the fuss is about or why he's been arrested. He's making a political point, one that most people will reject, but a political point nevertheless. There doesn't appear to be any hate speech there.

It's almost as if the arrest lends his mad theories a little more credence. Not much, granted, but there's just that nagging doubt, "why are they trying to shut him up?"

 

[Nobby_66]

Thanks for correcting me. I'd been too lazy to check the precise wording.

Arrested for "Malicious communications and public nuisance" apparently.

It is tempting to deny freedom of speech in a crisis. It can be the thin end of the wedge. On the other hand I do think this type of misinformation is extremely dangerous.

Of course, some will think Corbyn is telling the truth (ffs).

Ultimately, for me in this situation, individual freedom comes second to the safety of the public in general, given that the virus transmits.

Wasn't correcting you mate, it appears to be Piers who got it wrong. The ironic thing is that the analogy is quite good as the vaccine will ultimately set us free. Where Mr C has it badly wrong is that, for the victims of Auschwitz, work did not have the same result. I personally find the comparison grossly offensive which is why I assumed a public order offence but malicious comes would fit the bill if he's been posting the leaflets through people's doors.
Must admit, this guy seems to be pinging the moral radar quite a lot lately but I'd never heard of him before coronavirus, I wonder what his beef was before that?

 

[Gills 58]

Wasn't correcting you mate, it appears to be Piers who got it wrong. The ironic thing is that the analogy is quite good as the vaccine will ultimately set us free. Where Mr C has it badly wrong is that, for the victims of Auschwitz, work did not have the same result. I personally find the comparison grossly offensive which is why I assumed a public order offence but malicious comes would fit the bill if he's been posting the leaflets through people's doors.
Must admit, this guy seems to be pinging the moral radar quite a lot lately but I'd never heard of him before coronavirus, I wonder what his beef was before that?

Seems like he is a professional protester
(my impression, that is).