valenciagill
Vital Football Hero
Best you get it off your chest I suppose !
Corbyn suspended !
- Thread starter shotshy
- Start date
Best you get it off your chest I suppose !
Alderman Barnes
Vital Squad Member
Thanks fascist guru, luckily we're talking about democratic parties where the leaders listen to the membership.
Oh fuck.
Oh fuck.
You got it.
Being in the political centre to left-of-centre is Labour’s only chance of being electable.
It might not fit with the ideology of some of the ‘lefties’ on this board - but that is the reality.
I’m part of the unrepresented electorate and I think there are a lot like me. The current Tory party has gravitated too far towards the right to fend off the threat of UKIP and appease the ERG. The Labour Party gravitated towards the left under Corbyn’s. The current political system is crying out for a centrist party.
Vodapadi Beef Sache
Vital Squad Member
Yep .... that’s the way it is thankfully .... the far left under Corbyn showed themselves to be unelectable anti semites who need to be driven out of politics and marginalised in society.
Looking at some of these replies on here and Twitter just shows how the far left are more interested in winning factional racist arguments than actually being able to reflect on what the EHRC has concluded.
shotshy
Vital Champions League
You are genuinely a nasty little shit, aren’t you.
You’re incapable of having a debate without bringing name calling and bitterness into it.
Continue to enjoy your own vitriol in isolation .
Good luck but feel free to do one .
I understand AB's frustration and obviously any genuinely left wing politician has a massive battle on their hands against an oveewhelmingly right wing media. However, as a "leftie" myself I'm angry at the incompetence of those that took over with Corbyn. His policies were way better than those of the other candidates back in 2015. However, I voted for Burnham as I (correctly) predicted Corbyn would be useless.
I left the party for a few years over Blair. I feel betrayed by the amateur "students" who were in control and the cult of Corbyn. What a shame. Policies I'd love to see have no chabce of co.ing to light with such people "running" the party. A total f#ckfest. How stupid of Corbyn to make schoolkid type excuses yesterday. Good riddance. He's made a career out of opposing. Couldn't run a bath, let alone a country.
In my 40 plus years if supporting Labour we've only had one decent leftie who seemed competent and that was Tony Benn.
Even I think you've gone a bit OTT AB.
I left the party for a few years over Blair. I feel betrayed by the amateur "students" who were in control and the cult of Corbyn. What a shame. Policies I'd love to see have no chabce of co.ing to light with such people "running" the party. A total f#ckfest. How stupid of Corbyn to make schoolkid type excuses yesterday. Good riddance. He's made a career out of opposing. Couldn't run a bath, let alone a country.
In my 40 plus years if supporting Labour we've only had one decent leftie who seemed competent and that was Tony Benn.
Even I think you've gone a bit OTT AB.
GillsBluenose
Vital Football Hero
If anti-semitism is so rife, why are there not more police investigations in to those specific individuals responsible. Is it not a hate crime and therefore prosecutable?
If this body that made the findings has such indisputable evidence, to the effect that Starmer claims that they can not be questioned, therefore as powerful as the police, when do the massive amount of court cases against individuals start?
Did any of the talking heads in the Panorama programme take their complaints to the authorities, hence proving they were not just trying to stitch up JC?
I don't know whether the guy that made the statement on behalf of that body was just a spokesman but it was given with a wet liberal tone that makes me suspect the worst.
If this body that made the findings has such indisputable evidence, to the effect that Starmer claims that they can not be questioned, therefore as powerful as the police, when do the massive amount of court cases against individuals start?
Did any of the talking heads in the Panorama programme take their complaints to the authorities, hence proving they were not just trying to stitch up JC?
I don't know whether the guy that made the statement on behalf of that body was just a spokesman but it was given with a wet liberal tone that makes me suspect the worst.
shotshy
Vital Champions League
I feel you may be missing the point GBN.
The independent revue found incontrovertible evidence and Corbyn chose to play it down rather than embrace the issues. He could, and probably should have just put his hands up and said, yep, fair cop, we/I didn't do enough.
As usual, it's not the 'crime' , it's the denial or cover up that sees an end to politicians.
That's the same for left or right (Trump excluded)
This aside, it's apparently clear to any sensible Labour voter that Jeremy Corbyn was totally unelectable, unless of course, you regard an eighty seat Tory majority as success?
It will be a slow rebuild, starting now.
In my opinion, if it takes a Blair type of leader and policies to win back power, then so be it.
That is better than sitting on the sidelines whinging about things.
Under Corbyn, the mistake of assuming that more members would turn into more voters was a misjudgment.
Those on the far extremes of any political group generally live in an echo chamber and start to believe that the world thinks like them.
Confirmation bias is still alive and well.
The independent revue found incontrovertible evidence and Corbyn chose to play it down rather than embrace the issues. He could, and probably should have just put his hands up and said, yep, fair cop, we/I didn't do enough.
As usual, it's not the 'crime' , it's the denial or cover up that sees an end to politicians.
That's the same for left or right (Trump excluded)
This aside, it's apparently clear to any sensible Labour voter that Jeremy Corbyn was totally unelectable, unless of course, you regard an eighty seat Tory majority as success?
It will be a slow rebuild, starting now.
In my opinion, if it takes a Blair type of leader and policies to win back power, then so be it.
That is better than sitting on the sidelines whinging about things.
Under Corbyn, the mistake of assuming that more members would turn into more voters was a misjudgment.
Those on the far extremes of any political group generally live in an echo chamber and start to believe that the world thinks like them.
Confirmation bias is still alive and well.
GillsBluenose
Vital Football Hero
We will beg to differ as I feel you are missing my point.
"The independent revue found incontrovertible evidence" - so did JC who made it clear that there was a problem - it was the scale of it that he was questioning as well as tactics of opponents both within and outside the party. It is not hard to agree that is true as the likes of Tom Watson and Chris Leslie were constantly taking an opposite view to him on practically everything in a way to undermine him.
The constitution of the Labour party, like UK Law, requires there to be a disciplinary hearing and evidence collection before declaring someone guilty - called due process - and JC claims he was actually trying to speed that up (believe that or not) so that is why he does not think he could have done more. How long do many legal cases take to come to court?
As I said previously, why have all of those supposedly subjected to anti-semitic remarks only taken their issue to the party leadership and not seeked legal redress for a hate crime, particularly if not satisfied?
"unless of course, you regard an eighty seat Tory majority as success?" - Now, you know the same as I do that the only reason it was not a hung parliament again was down to the one difference between 2017 and 2019. The insistence of idiots like Thornberry, Watson and indeed Starmer in calling for a second Brexit referendum in their manifesto, something it is understood JC did not support, and which went down so badly in the traditional Northern seats that, through desperation to get Brexit done, were willing to hold their nose and vote Tory for the first time.
Unfortunately, Starmer is looking like he is willing to abandon the ideal of Social Justice to gain power so it will be a hollow victory if he is successful. IMO his lack of courage and beliefs will gradually become his undoing. Looking more and more like Blair mark two.
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shotshy
Vital Champions League
Sigh!
Starmer cannot invoke a policy of Social Justice or any other policy UNLESS Labour regain power.
Unless Starmer can convince the general electorate and not just Labour supporters that the party has changed fundamentally, then you and I will be left pissing in the wind.
One thing that the Tories figured is that it’s not about morals or convictions, it’s about power.
Without a working majority, it’s all theory.
jogills
Vital Football Hero
Point of order! Swinson was the one calling for an election and Corbyn was suckered into a position where he couldn't publicly oppose it. All water under the bridge of course.
Jeremy Corbyn sadly had become a paid up member of the cult of Corbyn and rushed to defend the movement. A smarter move would have been to take time before issuing that statement on social media, which was knowingly penned before Starmer's planned statement.
Jeremy Corbyn sadly had become a paid up member of the cult of Corbyn and rushed to defend the movement. A smarter move would have been to take time before issuing that statement on social media, which was knowingly penned before Starmer's planned statement.
shotshy
Vital Champions League
After January, the Brexit monkey will be off Starmer’s back and he can move on to running things properly.
Assuming Johnson doesn’t capitulate and stays firm on potential state aid in the U.K, it will be perfectly lined up for Labour in the future.
Without interference from the Eu, true Labour policies can be drawn up.
Assuming Johnson doesn’t capitulate and stays firm on potential state aid in the U.K, it will be perfectly lined up for Labour in the future.
Without interference from the Eu, true Labour policies can be drawn up.
Spot on. Really crass and typical of him. Shows why he never was leadership material.
I've always thought if him as a nice, highly principled bloke but this latest intervention is making me reassess him.
On a point brought up by AB re doing what the membership wanted, well this argument suited Corbyn for his multiple rebellions against party leadership decisions, particularly under Blair. I agreed with him usually btw. Then when he was leader and a large majority wanted Remain he put in a pathetically lame performance. I remember one "speech" when it appeared he was made to read out his support for the EU and he delivered it like a naughty schoolkid forced to read in class as a punishment. If he'd put in a fraction of the effort that he later put in to galvanising the young in the '17 election I'm sure Brexit wouldn't have happened and we wouldn't be in the mess we are now.
As for retracting what he said yesterday; no chance, far too pig headed and "pure", same as the objections to Starmer rightly settling the court case.
Also agree with Jogills rejection of the cult of Corbyn. One of my political heroes, Tony Benn persistently insisted it was about policies, not people.
(Btw, obviously we need people competent enough to carry out the policies).
GillsBluenose
Vital Football Hero
Gills 58 - a rather confusing post.
"pathetically lame performance" = being honest. His instincts, like Benn who you bizarrely are calling your political hero, were known to be eurosceptic. Benn led the call to reverse Common Market entry back in the referendum in the 1970s. If Labour members had a majority for remain as you say, JC was therefore only effectively being a spokesman for that majority, not himself.
"pig headed" = being honest. Why should he retract a statement of his true beliefs?. No longer leader, he only speaks for himself and has the right to give his account of matters as he saw them. This process reeks of bullying and a lot of party members are resigning, plus BBC report that £350k has already been raised through crowdfunding in a day, in case there are long term legal costs in defending himself and his right to free speech, if not offensive.
Even the rabid Hodge was against taking any action against him as she regarded him as now being irrelevant.
"pathetically lame performance" = being honest. His instincts, like Benn who you bizarrely are calling your political hero, were known to be eurosceptic. Benn led the call to reverse Common Market entry back in the referendum in the 1970s. If Labour members had a majority for remain as you say, JC was therefore only effectively being a spokesman for that majority, not himself.
"pig headed" = being honest. Why should he retract a statement of his true beliefs?. No longer leader, he only speaks for himself and has the right to give his account of matters as he saw them. This process reeks of bullying and a lot of party members are resigning, plus BBC report that £350k has already been raised through crowdfunding in a day, in case there are long term legal costs in defending himself and his right to free speech, if not offensive.
Even the rabid Hodge was against taking any action against him as she regarded him as now being irrelevant.
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As leader he should have stuck by his previously stated belief to campaign for what the membership clearly wanted, right or wrong , but he didn't. He slagged off previous leaders for not doing what the majority wanted and then did the same himself. Honest?
Effectively belittled the independant report by his claims of exaggeration and feeble schoolkid excuses. It wasn't the Daily Mail that found the leadership wanting. The bloke was useless. Set back the policies I'd like to see for years. Thanks for nothing.
I'm not confused at all.
I do accept that he may not necessarily have done enough to be expelled but what shocking judgement. More interested in saving his own reputation than the Socialist cause.
Effectively belittled the independant report by his claims of exaggeration and feeble schoolkid excuses. It wasn't the Daily Mail that found the leadership wanting. The bloke was useless. Set back the policies I'd like to see for years. Thanks for nothing.
I'm not confused at all.
I do accept that he may not necessarily have done enough to be expelled but what shocking judgement. More interested in saving his own reputation than the Socialist cause.
valenciagill
Vital Football Hero
Corbyn may have gone, but Momentum and their allies are still there. Four years to the next election, Starmer has his work cut out to achieve a majority in that time, the Conservatives will work flat out to stop them. Boris will almost certainly be gone by then and a management type will be clearing up the mess. The press will keep undermining any efforts that Labour make to look more centrist, as will Momentum. They are like Militant in the 80's a boil on the bum of the Labour party.
GillsBluenose
Vital Football Hero
For what the majority wanted? Only you are claiming that as fact. Do you mean the majority of members or voters? The northern heartland voters passionately wanted Brexit and punished Labour at the polls. If you don't believe me Google former MP Caroline Flint and read her prophetic warnings to the leadership before the election, which turned out to be spot on.
There is no such thing as an independent report, without the right of criticism. I am not aware that there are any high court judges, sworn to be impartial, on this commission and its representatives are bound to be voters with their own political opinion and agenda. Indeed, the name suggests they exist to placate complainants rather than judge impartially. Who knows whether they are even counting some of the legitimate criticisms of the actions of the Israeli state as being anti-semitic?
That being said, even JC said that their recommendations should be applied, while also saying much of the criticism was overstated. He is entitled to his opinion.
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Starmer may not be leftie enough for my perfect world but the bloke has impeccable antecedents and I'm more than happy enough to throw my lot in with him. He has done a real job competently with a massive level of responsibibilty. I've wanted him as party leader for years.
Clear majority of members. Happy to constantly oppose the leadership when the members also opposed, eg, under Blair and as I said, I routinely agreed with Corbyn's stance. Became leader and then was limp wristed in campaigning for what the majority of what members wanted. How "honest" was that?
