Club Framework | Vital Football

Club Framework

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Luke Imp

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Discussions r.e. WBA/DC over the last few days has made me think more about is the framework we now have behind the playing squad and how it's something that needs to be continued and protected during any managerial changes we have in the coming years.

You would certainly hope that anything implemented through DC/NC would continue and be a Club Framework managers are expected to fit into rather than ripping it all up and changing everything. Obviously they might want to tweak things, and over time, newer and better things will come into play as well as people like Mike Hine potentially following DC/NC.
 
Director of Football positions are meant to address that, but it's a nonsense because every club remains terrified of failure, and you can do all the succession planning you like but when something isn't working....

That's why there is no consistency over the type of managers linked with any open managerial position. It's just assumed that someone with a track record of success will come in, sprinkle his magic pixie dust and get results.

The key question is always going to be - do you keep faith in the framework when you're not winning? And if so, for how long?
 
Brendan Bradley said:
The key question is always going to be - do you keep faith in the framework when you're not winning? And if so, for how long?
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By framework, I meant the scouting work, sports science provisions, analysis etc rather than playing style (although it'd be wise not to jump from one style to another all the time and end up with a mish-mash of a squad).

The team behind the team, if you like.
 
My view, for what it’s worth, once you have a successful model you promote from within. I don’t buy the ‘no managerial experience’ argument, my evidence is this.

A successful club and structure was built the manager retired and the job was given to the coach with NO managerial experience who carried on the work, he then retired and the job was likewise given to the coach, who then retired and the job was given to a current player. I am of course talking about Shankly, Paisley, Fagan and Dalglish, who all followed the same blue print and the same culture. I’m not for a minute saying we are like Liverpool, but promoting from within can work.
 
This whole social media frenzy has in fact highlighted that when the Cowley''s do eventuslly leave they are likely to want to take some of the key performance and medical people with them. Release clauses for them as well please!
 
westbanker said:
My view, for what it’s worth, once you have a successful model you promote from within. I don’t buy the ‘no managerial experience’ argument, my evidence is this.

A successful club and structure was built the manager retired and the job was given to the coach with NO managerial experience who carried on the work, he then retired and the job was likewise given to the coach, who then retired and the job was given to a current player. I am of course talking about Shankly, Paisley, Fagan and Dalglish, who all followed the same blue print and the same culture. I’m not for a minute saying we are like Liverpool, but promoting from within can work.
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...and eventually they wore out the template. Then what? Didn't City try that with George Kerr, John Pickering and John Schofield? Now remind me how much patience was shown?

And I understand Luke's point about structure but the fundamental point remains the same - your scouts, analysts, fitness coaches and general entourage will be sacrificed on the altar of results. It's a certainty.
 
westbanker said:
My view, for what it’s worth, once you have a successful model you promote from within. I don’t buy the ‘no managerial experience’ argument, my evidence is this.

A successful club and structure was built the manager retired and the job was given to the coach with NO managerial experience who carried on the work, he then retired and the job was likewise given to the coach, who then retired and the job was given to a current player. I am of course talking about Shankly, Paisley, Fagan and Dalglish, who all followed the same blue print and the same culture. I’m not for a minute saying we are like Liverpool, but promoting from within can work.
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liverpool were the top club in the country at the time. best players. and clout to sign the best players. probably could have won the league without a manager.

i think the model is important. stick with that. then try to find a character(s) that can work within it... that might be from within, or might be someone from elsewhere... i wouldn't set that bit in stone.

unfortunately, so much about the cowleys [brothers, well-educated, teachers, attention to detail, tenacity, willingness to learn, 600 previous games, young, etc etc etc etc] is going to be V difficult to replicate.
 
nlondonimp said:
liverpool were the top club in the country at the time. best players. and clout to sign the best players. probably could have won the league without a manager.

i think the model is important. stick with that. then try to find a character(s) that can work within it... that might be from within, or might be someone from elsewhere... i wouldn't set that bit in stone.

unfortunately, so much about the cowleys [brothers, well-educated, teachers, attention to detail, tenacity, willingness to learn, 600 previous games, young, etc etc etc etc] is going to be V difficult to replicate.
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JMac and Rheady have been here from the start of this transformation in structure and culture.
 
There's a lot around about how Watford's model now doesn't really matter which manager they have, they're effectively just a 'coach', with other established staff within the club's framework dealing with personnel etc to ensure they don't make wholesale changes.

I imagine some managers will be less keen to work within those constraints, but football has certainly gone that way in Europe and it prevents a costly cycle of overhauls.

It seems tricky in this respect for us as with the Cowleys very much bringing in their people (former players, and players on their method) and they also seem to have their own links with various clubs. It might be hard to sustain that with a new management team (which I guess is what Luke is getting at...). Things like the partnerships with clubs we'd want to extend past DC?
 
domski2017 said:
This whole social media frenzy has in fact highlighted that when the Cowley''s do eventuslly leave they are likely to want to take some of the key performance and medical people with them. Release clauses for them as well please!
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I guess they are likely to normal salaried positions rather than fixed term contracts. If they want to hand in their notice and then apply for a position at say WBA there is not a lot we can do even if there are 'no poaching' bits in the Cowley contracts.
 
Luke Imp said:
^ Brentford are another who work similarly to Watford.
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I'm not entirely against it... if you think now, West Brom are linked with Labbadia and the Cowleys. Two very different managers, from what I've seen styles etc... even Hughton is different to all of them.

Whereas Watford/Brentford I imagine would have a small list of people who fit with their playing philosophy, squad, level of control etc
 
Rasenimp said:
I'm not entirely against it... if you think now, West Brom are linked with Labbadia and the Cowleys. Two very different managers, from what I've seen styles etc... even Hughton is different to all of them.

Whereas Watford/Brentford I imagine would have a small list of people who fit with their playing philosophy, squad, level of control etc
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And both have a slight advantage in that their Chairman own more than one Club (that's assuming some of the names brought in have worked for them before, I don't know).
 
NottyImp said:
Just because an internal candidate "Knows the method", it does not necessarily make them manager material. There's a lot of intangibles that DC/NC bring to the role that, say, McCombe or Rhead may not have at all (or, indeed, they may!).
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There in lays the problem, we’ll never know unless they are given the opportunity, if we appoint from the outside and they change the structure and ethos and we don’t continue on the upward curve, we will have lost the opportunity.

I think that the Liverpool model of that period speaks volumes, back then money was a much less important issue, indeed Mark Lawrenson tells the story of him meeting Bob Paisley in a hotel and bob said ‘do you want to play for Liverpool’ mark said yes, bob said ‘training at Mellwood at 9 tomorrow and we’ll have a contract for you to sign’. Mark is on record as saying that he just wanted to win things and play for Liverpool and play in Europe , he didn’t care about the money.

I see an internal appointment, with the infrastructure that we have as less risky that an outside appointment.
 
westbanker said:
There in lays the problem, we’ll never know unless they are given the opportunity, if we appoint from the outside and they change the structure and ethos and we don’t continue on the upward curve, we will have lost the opportunity.
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OK, so you make the internal appointment and results deteriorate.

Is that because the new appointee is not correctly applying the method and you made the wrong choice? Do you stick with that person because you have faith in the structure, or do you keep appointing new people insisting they stick with the same process? That could be considered dogmatic.

Do you believe in people or the system? Your post implies the structure and ethos is sure to succeed, just because it's working now, and I don't see how you can be sure of that.
 
I'm sorry, but the answer is blindingly obvious. The Cowleys should never be allowed to leave. The Selenity Stand development should include a dungeon and The Cowleys should only be allowed out of it to perform official duties and only then if they wear an electronic ankle tag. They should then be locked back up again for their own safety until needed for the next function.

Every time they win a trophy they will be allowed to go on holiday, but only in the UK.

Sorted.
 
cherryexile said:
I'm sorry, but the answer is blindingly obvious. The Cowleys should never be allowed to leave. The Selenity Stand development should include a dungeon and The Cowleys should only be allowed out of it to perform official duties and only then if they wear an electronic ankle tag. They should then be locked back up again for their own safety until needed for the next function.

Every time they win a trophy they will be allowed to go on holiday, but only in the UK.

Sorted.
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I think only abroad. No holidays near the west midlands.
 
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