Change of Subject...(non gills)

A

alphabet_king

Vital 1st Team Regular
Change of topic from Brexit/political parties/scally out for once…

Thought I’d talk about Plastics, and the mismanagement of plastic waste. Essentially this is waste ending up in the ocean which is one of the key arguments against, the sheer volume of plastics in landfill for hundreds of years while they decompose the other – I think.

It’s big news at the moment. With earth day being last Sunday too it’s been all over the press and social media, and even my son’s school did a class presentation on it and he was reminding me all weekend about not using plastic waste. We’re all doing our best to reduce plastic waste. I’d say the carrier bag ban has been a great success even if I do regularly forget to take the bags for life to the shops with me so have to buy new ones regularly. That said – I always re-used carrier bags at home anyway. Doesn’t everyone else have a big stash of carrier bags in their kitchen saved for when you need one for some random reason?

I’ve then seen articles in the UK press about a plastic straw ban. And a ban of all single use plastics by 2020. I’ve seen the suggestion that we should try out a 1 month plastics ban on our selves as well. All commendable efforts to decrease plastic usage in the UK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43817287
https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/bbc-single-use-plastics-ban-2020-target-cups-pollution-cutlery-a8208771.html

All over the press we see photos of oceans filled with plastics waste, animals with their heads through plastic 6 pack rings etc. This is seen as the justification for all of these initiatives. It’s the big shock tactic which to be honest wins us all over. It’s absolutely disgusting to think of.

I do have to wonder, is this caused by us? are we really that bad for producing plastic waste in the UK and mismanaging it so that it ends up in the oceans? Further, surely we are not at fault for the gross mismanagement of plastics. I find it very hard to accept what the press would have us believe, that much of what we do in the UK would impact this at all. I find it hard to believe that this waste comes from the UK at all really. Surely there would be a field day in the press if any waste management companies, or people were found to be dumping waste into the seas? Maybe we sell it to other countries that dump it in the seas? I don’t know. But I find it hard to believe this would be allowed by our government.

https://www.earthday.org/2018/04/06/top-20-countries-ranked-by-mass-of-mismanaged-plastic-waste/

This article suggests UK aren’t anywhere near the main offenders. In fact, due to the volumes, it also seems to suggest to me…are our efforts not essentially futile until the main offenders literally clean up their act?

Okay so I totally agree we should be leading the way, setting an example. We can’t tell other countries to sort themselves out until we have our own house in order. But I do feel the media misrepresent the evidence too. And I don’t feel that we’re really that bad either.

I guess on the other hand you could argue that if it causes us to decrease plastics use, it’s not really so bad that the shock tactics are used, even if they are not entirely true. If it means the public use less plastic, which is a good thing, it’s probably a case of the means justify the end.

But it does stink a little of misrepresentation. It also stinks of us really not focusing our efforts on the right issues. According to this article, we really should be focusing our efforts on pushing these countries to get their house in order.

One other news article I found interesting was this one, about the discovery of an enzyme which seems to break down (eats) plastics! Interesting because it came out days before the news of the single use plastics ban. If this could be created on a grand scale then quite frankly we could use as much plastic as we liked if it was fully recyclable.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-43783631

Surely it would be easier, and most effective to spend millions funding this research as opposed to researching and pushing biodegradable cardboard knives and forks?

Keen to hear people’s opinions on this. It’s very possible (probable) I’m missing the point completely and expect to be told as such.

Hoping this doesn't turn into a Tories vs Labour, anything about Islam or Scally to be honest.
 
Mr. McGuire: I want to say one word to you. Just one word.

Benjamin: Yes, sir.

Mr. McGuire: Are you listening?

Benjamin: Yes, I am.

Mr. McGuire: Plastics.

Benjamin: Exactly how do you mean?

Mr. McGuire: There's a great future in plastics. Think about it. Will you think about it?
 
Whilst it is true that most businesses are money grabbing ******, they do have to listen to the consumer if they don't want to go bust.
Supermarkets have fruit and veg loose as well is pre-packaged in plastic, unfortunately most people seem to go for the pre-packaged.
Simple shopping choices could force the manufacturing companies and shops to improve their ways.
 
Good post! When I went to Thailand in January plastic was washed ashore on every tide. There is a never ending picking cycle of locals and tourists who collect the rubbish as they walk the beaches and bag it up. You can see it when you are snorkelling almost anywhere. The Chinese, Indonesians and Thai's themselves are the worst global culprits and it is coming home to roost.
An artist friend of mine was commissioned by the Outer Hebrides to created an art installation using all the coloured plastics that are collected from their once pristine shores. We have woken up too late too the problem in the UK and now the Chinese no longer take the recyclable plastic waste we cannot handle. There are 3 main things we can all do to try and pull us back from the brink.
1. Wherever there is a biodegradable alternative to plastic we should use it.
2. Lobby the big companies/ supermarkets etc to absolutely minimise the amount of plastic they currently put in packaging and single use products (there is no need for plastic straws or plastic core cotton buds at all)
3. Take not only your rubbish home from the beach but help collect a few bits from every vist.
It is a massive problem created in just 2 or 3 short generations so we should all feel obligated to be part of the solution.
 
It is reasonable to draw attention to the origin of the bulk of plastic waste but there is more to it than that. Firstly I don't think it is useful to frame the question as an ethical one with goodies on one side and baddies on the other. It's a global problem with interlocking global causes and potential solutions.

It is useful to reduce our own plastic use, individually and nationally. Useful in a drop in the ocean sense, useful because it improves our immediate environment, useful because it helps understanding of what is going on. The biggest reason for me is however the wider effect. We, along with most advanced nations, consume more of everything. That's not a moral point just a statement. Most of that stuff is made from plastic, partially or wholly, wrapped in plastic (bulk wrapped for transport too). Every new car is covered in plastic for instance. So much of "foreign" plastic is exported in response to demand from elsewhere.

David James drew attention to the waste and environmental damage surrounding football and it's a subject worth considering. How much plastic is involved in food and drink sold at stadiums? The reasons are obvious at first sight but why do we put up with inferior and over priced junk, which is provided in nasty plastic packaging/bottles/glasses? That's before you get to the absurdly wasteful transport choices of most of us to get there.

It is easy to despair because of the limits of our own actions and choices but not logical. We are a small part of anything on a global scale but that should not put us off acting. The Scandanavians have had an influence on the rest of the world that belies their relatively small populations. We have the advantage of speaking a global language and generally punching above our weight in such matters.
 
Looking at the link on the opening post, there doesn't seem a lot of point recycling plastic if the Chinese are going to carry on polluting at that rate. I caught the back end of something on BBC a few weeks ago, which said that a lot of the plastic we put in recycling doesn't get recycled anyway, and will end up in landfill.
 
Sadly, no matter how much you educate people about the impact of plastic on the environment, there will always be a significant number who won't dispose of their rubbish in a responsible manner. For example, fly tipping continues apace in Kent.

While developed nations may consume the most plastic, markets in other parts of the world are full of Chinese made plastic tat which is likely to end up dumped when no longer needed. It has been an inevitable consequence of global trade and opening up new trade opportunities. Is it fair to deny a child in the developing world the chance to own a plastic tractor when our own children have already benefited from it?
 
ThreeSixes said:
Looking at the link on the opening post, there doesn't seem a lot of point recycling plastic if the Chinese are going to carry on polluting at that rate.
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Exactly my point really. I feel a couple of the posts (aside from the plastic fans ones) above may have missed my point. It's not about where we get our plastics from, and are we able to recycle more in the UK. In fact it's the very opposite of that really.

It's as simple as you say 666. Given the amount of plastics pollution these other countries are guilty of directly (not by simply supplying plastics to us), isn't any efforts we make in this country above what we already do ultimately futile?

The focus for me shouldn't be on what we in the UK can do better, of course we should try to do better and lead the way, but the real focus should be on making China, Indonesia, and the other top 20 countries that actually cause the issues to improve their recycling. The waste in all the media pictures of oceans with plastic all over it is simply not UK waste.

Until we do focus our efforts on these countries, our efforts are just a drop in the ocean. No pun intended.
 
Certainly the bulk of it can't be ours but I'm unclear why you are so certain that so little of it is ours. That aside these were exactly the same arguments used to dissuade people from taking our auto and home emissions seriously and figures for new coal power stations were trotted out in support. It now transpires that action in China is moving far, far quicker than we believed. Global action is the goal but that requires opting in and reducing and recycling ourselves. It's part of the solution and it's an essential part of getting wider agreement.

There is quite a bit of evidence that we export large amounts of waste and the receiving countries are beginning to reject it. It's all part of general movement.
 
I am very cynical about these attempts to make the consumer feel guilty about things they ultimately can not control. Nobody loves plastic for plastic's sake, for heavens sake.

The only answer is draconian legislation against or punitive taxes on both food and drink manufacturers that use the type of plastic that does not break down. Taxes on use of plastic could make glass less expensive so should then encourage drinks producers to follow what Corona did in my youth - put their drinks in glass bottles.

The other problem is finding something to replace plastic that will keep fresh products sealed so they last without going off, but biodegrades . Threat of taxes or tariffs should encourage food producers to fund the necessary research to find the best solution.

Ultimately though we are powerless to prevent oceans being polluted unless all other nations agree to do their bit as well.

To digress a little, the other guilt trip we have been sent on recently is about the overuse of Antibiotics making them eventually become ineffective. Why bother to inform or appeal to the general public about that? You cant buy Antibiotics over the counter. Surely that warning should only have been aimed at GPs as they are the only ones that can prescribe/issue antibiotics and assess whether they are needed.
 
jogills said:
Certainly the bulk of it can't be ours but I'm unclear why you are so certain that so little of it is ours.
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Because that is what the earthday study, linked on Alphabet King's first post, says. I don't know how they worked it out, but the study showed that United States (in 20th place) was responsible for 3% of the plastic pollution than China was, and we're not on the list (so below USA).
 
OK point taken but we are still responsible for the plastic littering our own beaches and clogging our rivers and sewers. Remember the Somerset floods; they were made much worse by plastic waste.

Guilt tripping is pretty feeble as a strategy in changing behaviour. It makes the already aware more anxious and alienates everyone else. It is still worth addressing our own use and working with others on the world stage.

Many of our local roads and lanes are littered with windblown plastic and I'd make personal changes to address that, likewise our beaches.
 
jogills said:
OK point taken but we are still responsible for the plastic littering our own beaches and clogging our rivers and sewers.
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Of course. Littering is a really quite disgraceful habit. It happens everywhere from people who throw stuff out of their car on motorways to people who leave their left overs on their table at fast food restaurants etc. Despicable behaviour really.

But the key point here though is that actually people probably think that all the effort theyre going to to reduce plastic usage actually makes a difference to the volume of plastics in the ocean and the world wide plastics. But these stats show that quite simply their actions has no/little impact at all. The focus needs to be really put on these top 20 countries to sort their selves out. But certainly as I said in my OP, we should lead the way too, and lead by example.
 
We can do our bit and so we should but it is only a bit. We're only just scratching at the surface of the problem; so, heaven knows how you get the message across in places like, China and Indonesia etc. As regards leading the world, apparently Attenborough's TV programme on the subject did make an impact in China when it was broadcast but that is only one tiny drop in the ocean.
 
Wayne.Kerr said:
We can do our bit and so we should but it is only a bit. We're only just scratching at the surface of the problem; so, heaven knows how you get the message across in places like, China and Indonesia etc. As regards leading the world, apparently Attenborough's TV programme on the subject did make an impact in China when it was broadcast but that is only one tiny drop in the ocean.
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Pressure needs to be put on them at a international government level. In the same way we all get into international agreements to reduce emissions etc. Until we do, I can only reiterate our efforts to reduce our utterly insignificant volume of plastic waste are ultimately futile.
 
The EU has been a big mover on matters environmental; I hope we will continue to support it when Brexit comes into effect.
 
AK and 666

Apologies if I'm misreading your position but I don't see our domestic actions and the problems in China (and other parts of the developing world) as an either/or situation

Surely it is in everyone's best interest for us to do everything we can in our own country to clean up the environment while putting pressure on our government to do everything THEY can to influence and show leadership to the rest of the world

We've spent the past two years at least arguing about our influence either inside or outside the EU. I think this is an issue where maybe we can demonstrate that influence

I can't subscribe to the view that I am only one person in a planet of billions so my actions have zero impact. Too depressing!!
 
Ps if we are trying to positively influence those countries which may have a bigger problem and our own house is not in order surely that undermines our position as well?
 
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