Capitalism, the pros and cons

  • Thread starter Villan Of The North
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Villan Of The North

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At the risk of infuriating The Fear I'm going to post something that could set Margaret Thatcher in a good light.

I responded to an American friend of mine's Facebook post and though that it might make an interesting discussion on here.

Before posting the original video on here, and my following comments, I'll lay my cards on the table here and now. I'm a capitalist, I believe in people's right to success and the reap the rewards of this success, I don't believe in high taxation or over-regulation, as tends to be the case with socialism, as I believe it stifles innovation and growth.

This said, I do believe in social responsibility, I just don't want it in the hands of the government more than it needs to be.

I believe that business above a certain size should be required to provide social goods, or at least to make significant contributions to them, preferably locally, strengthening bonds between the business the local community which should, in turn, encourage the local community to support the business when needed, things such as schooling and health centres/hospitals. Wages should be set at a level that does not require state subsidisation (this of course depends on circumstances, a family living on a single income with 4 kids is always going to struggle, it's inevitable that the state will be required to help to a certain extent) I believe that doctor's and hospital visits for adults should carry a nominal charge, nothing that makes it expensive, just enough to deter those that don't really need to see the doctor but do so because it's free (doctors can't do anything for colds and the like anyway) and for those that do choose to use the doctor, they will at least contribute a small amount. (We have a similar system in Norway, we pay about £15 per visit up to a maximum of £200 total in the year, after that it's free but with UK wage levels and general prices being lower I'd suggest something between £5 and £10) This list goes on.

Basically I believe that those that are fortunate enough to be financially successful should take responsibility for the social needs of society without having to add extra layers of costs by administrating it though national and local government.

The original video, with the comment, "How to handle socialists" follows along with my reply.

[youtube=okHGCz6xxiw]

The thing is, so much has changed since then that what Thatcher, quite rightly, said is no longer true. Throughout the 1980s everyone in the UK benefited (on average, there were a good number that were unemployed too), genuine wealth was created with the rich taking the cream off the top, widening that gap but at the same time taking more people above the poverty line.

As mentioned, things have changed and unfettered capitalism has run wild with certain individuals abusing their power (just look at the Michael Moore documentary, Capitalism:A love story, check out the story about the youth offender's centre for a classic example of this), more and more employees forced to rely on social security to prop up their minimum wage (and sometimes lower) incomes whilst the gap between the rich and poor is still widening.

Frankly it's pretty disgusting that some of the richest of people are doing so on the back of those underpaid employees, the social security budget is subsidising the wealth of the rich. Your taxes are subsidising Donald Trump's wealth.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm a capitalist but capitalism must be tempered with morale responsibility and a social conscience.


 
Can't argue with any of that VOTN.

Extremely well said, and pretty much exactly how I view the world.

I'm probably a bit more 'socialist' than your good self, in as much as I have no qualms about state regulation (in principle, at least). Unfortunately, the state seem to base many of their decisions in favour of the highest bidder, or towards whatever interest group they have aligned themselves with.

I am not for high taxation, all I ask is that companies (and individuals) pay what is due - no more, no less.

Moral responsibility and social conscience seem to be dim and distant memories in the modern world, and it's a far worse off place for that in my book.
 
I think the problem is that human greed tends to obliterate any system that you install, be it communism where all are equal but some are more equal than others, or capitalism is a breeding ground for greedy c**ts that end up with more money than is earthly needed.

The biggest problem is the global market, it's all very well for people to say Google et al should be paying higher taxes, but firstly they aren't breaking the law and secondly if they don't think it's financially viable to operate in the UK they will move elsewhere, I heard they were creating around 6000 jobs for British people, that's the size of a small town. Now I know some will bring the min wage argument in here, but frankly people in this country now, today, are far better off than they were 10 years ago, 10 year before, and so on and so on. It's not a perfect system and there are lot's of things that could and should be better, but be thankful that you're in a country that can turn big companies heads and not in one that can't.
 
Agree Face dude (sorry, with Clive at work now we don't get to see the word dude attached to usernames that often now so.....lol) What I will say about that though is that a good number of these top companies are giving their CEOs record level bonuses despite the companies' failing status, this at a time when the workers are being squeezed to try to make ends meet. Now whilst I have no problem with workers being squeezed (if there's no money there then they can't have it and are probably better off than the alternative, unemployment) it leaves a bad taste in the moth when the man at the top gets record level bonuses. Frankly they could get many other leaders in that could fail at the same level as them for a lot less. It's folk like Elon Musk, people that make things happen and progress the company that should be getting these big bonuses, not least because the whole company is doing well and employees at all levels are benefiting.

 
It's all down to 'we're all in this together'... I don't believe if I earn £1m I should share all of that with others,however I do believe in some social responsibility and that includes paying the right taxes plus as you have touched on, if you are having to squeeze wages 'at the bottom' then you must do it at the top as well.

The fact they say one thing and do another... and the fact the bankers have been able to get away with daylight robbery that gets me and has also personally cost me a potential fortune business wise (not the right place to go into details) and yet none of them have truly been made accountable.
 
Of course, what did you think I meant? Don't make me laugh and say you thought I meant £1m in total? :2:


:17:

Tell you what, I'd take the thunderball £500k right now, that would be most pleasant!
 
I agree with you VOTN, and Fearos' point on the bankers, (especially the bankers really, I mean you'd be hard pressed to find a person in the entire UK that thinks justice was done there, unless they have a vested interest in there) I dunno, I just think maybe it's okay without being great, but okay is better than Greece or summat, but perhaps we should be up with Sweden or summat, dunno, I really do not know.

I think the main issues in our country right now are abundant with confusion, imv as follows -

Immigration - I am not anti it, but our infrastructure needs improving, where's the money gone for that?

NHS - money going in and being wasted, why's it being wasted, why's it not being sorted? Black hole money pit.

IN out OUT referendum - does anyone know what the fuck to vote?? Will it cost, us, will it save us money??

To me all of those have an underlying stream of suspicion as to where money is being spent and to whom is receiving it? Buddies of the government? Contractors, drugs companies, CEO's? If immigration generates more money for better infrastructure why the hell are our trains a bag of shite and Frances are amazing? why are our roads in a constant state of disrepair? If the NHS is failing why are the people in control not losing their jobs?


 
I would suggest it's due to a form of apathy, not that people don't care as such, just that things are actually not that bad in the grand scheme of things so the motivation is not there to stir up the inevitable hornets nest.

 
Villan Of The North - 3/2/2016 16:06

I would suggest it's due to a form of apathy, not that people don't care as such, just that things are actually not that bad in the grand scheme of things so the motivation is not there to stir up the inevitable hornets nest.
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Exactly my point, as I say earlier, things aren't really as bad as all that, just they could be better, but a revolt won't happen, don't cut your nose off to spite your face, or Russell Brands revolution might happen and thousands of innocent people die :10:

 
Massive gap between the have's and have not's but then again, there always has been really.

My main gripe remains 'we are in this together' then they attack low end benefits and disabled.

Yes, some companies aren't breaking the law re tax but they are stretching it and the loopholes could be closed with a law in reference to the INTENT re tax. I pay mine, our accountant showed us how to at least halve the corp tax but we wouldn't do it (for one thing, the safety net caught me when ill, how shite would it be of me to then dodge my share of tax?) so the big companies could surely have social responsibility and make a good relations song and dance about it?

As said, the bankers and their robbery cost me a bomb, I am for sure not the only one a victim of their greed.
 
Capitalism, the pros and cons?? Sounds a right blast to me so this capitalism has hookers and convicts in it,,,,,,mental :139:
 
I think the only right way is through trial and error and what works in one country might not work in another, it also doesn't help if you're not of a certain size.

Ireland simply cannot compete without being a tax haven. Its our USP and its what brings other companies into the country. With that said I think the rate is too low and we're far too reliant on them. I would like to think we have built up enough critical mass to keep these companies around with slightly higher rates. We have crippling social expenditure but our services are still piss poor and its another reason to increase corporate rates.

You then have the USA and its insane the shit I see here. I pay silly money for healthcare but its far better service than back home. The premium I pay for this service is also linked to having a good job and this girl I have been seeing has basically no health insurance despite having a reasonably okay job.

At 26 y.o I have seen a lot of rights and wrongs in different economies. I grew up in lower middle income to becoming a middle class kid through the 'celtic tiger' to see if collapse when I started college, moving to England in college to get work experience and seeing a country which I believed worked. Moving back to Ireland living on welfare for a few months and then getting an internship working 50 hours a week for 50 euro more than the social welfare. I stayed with that until 6 months down the road I thought this is pointless and paid for a visa to the US. Its almost 2 and half years since then and the change in my life is crazy but things still arent right here.

After seeing it all I still couldnt piece a fair system together. Social security is one of those really tricky ones it has to be a sensible and logical system. I am still a little bit bitter about how some things went in Ireland even though those things actually endeared me to my former boss here in NY.
 
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