Brexit rolls on...

[paz1967]

i like the notion that education should ask "how are you clever" as opposed to "how clever are you?" because despite my relevant intelligence to my peers as a kid, the only jobs i even heard of were shopkeeper, salesmen, factory worker, building labourer, mundane things.
I was never even made aware of the fantastic careers in the world at all. There genuinely wasnt a vision of that world..
Nowadays the world really does seem to be the oyster, the internet itself giving you insights into a million interesting subjects. You can really learn how to access these things and become knowledgable.
On a negative side, all the best jobs are bought nowadays or you really need to excell and unis are full of 'average; students relative to each other. Theyre also in debt on a wierd tax payers expense. I think most of these will end up in careers that they would succeed in anyway even wthout uni.
Therefore vocational knowledge i think should be set out much earlier, perhaps by the age of 11 when you might decide that actually they could achieve more without 5 years of comprehensive schools. Im adamant that I learned nothing useful in those informative years from secondary school

 

[in_the_top_one]

You're not wrong, even Oxford has concerns well to be precise certain courses do. Generally the collages themselves are extremely wealthy, as are certain departments (science in particular) but the arts, humanities etc face some challenges.

Certainly true for some science departments - not all. Some have better alumni relations and presumably handled patents more effectively.

 

[radfordinlondon]

People are free to choose what they want to do. Many people aren't as ambitious , don't deal with stress as well, would rather be in a job they enjoy etc . Graduate jobs usually pay more though. As a general rule if you want a minimum wage job you would be better off just going straight out to work at 18 (as both my kids did), and you would probably have a substantial amount in the pot before you reach 21, as opposed to the likely debts of a student.

It is the level and number of assumptions you make that i seek to challenge. The idea that people are free leaves me unsure of wether to laugh or cry. Not all people have the same choices- obviously people's circumstances affect those choices and the ability to take advantage of such opportunities.

To say people dont have ambition is wrong- they just have different ambitions to the ones you distinguish. I managed a lady once when i was a younger go-getter, she made me cross that she wasnt like me, climbing the corporate ladder. Took me a while to get she was a mother of 2 and not interested in my ambition or that of the business. That did not make her lazy or bad.

You make too many judgements based on your own experiences. Fair enough as that is what we do but its the applying them to others that you constantly trip up over imo.

You are by no means the only one.

 

[radfordinlondon]

You're not wrong, even Oxford has concerns well to be precise certain courses do. Generally the collages themselves are extremely wealthy, as are certain departments (science in particular) but the arts, humanities etc face some challenges.

That is because it has been hollowed out, robbed of its knowledge by big business that has used it to manipulate and drive consumerism. Moreover, humanities are being taken over by algorithms. Everyone is an economist now.

 

[Calvin Plummer]

Certainly true for some science departments - not all. Some have better alumni relations and presumably handled patents more effectively.

Pretty standard for a university to own the patents and have some form of reward system i thought.

 

[Calvin Plummer]

That is because it has been hollowed out, robbed of its knowledge by big business that has used it to manipulate and drive consumerism. Moreover, humanities are being taken over by algorithms. Everyone is an economist now.

It's also difficult to quantify value in humanities, when everything has to be measured and assigned a worth how do you do that in art history or philosophy etc?

 

[in_the_top_one]

Pretty standard for a university to own the patents and have some form of reward system i thought.

Completely agree, and that also highlights another uneasy relationship in Oxford: the distinction between "the University" and the Departments. There is general uplift from centrally held wealth, of course, but the University holding patents in, say, novel materials or scram jets is unlikely to help bioscience via MPLS much. And, you might ask, why should it? But if you go down that route, there is even less obligation on the inventors to subsidise Philosophy.

 

[Old Red Fart]

It is the level and number of assumptions you make that i seek to challenge. The idea that people are free leaves me unsure of wether to laugh or cry. Not all people have the same choices- obviously people's circumstances affect those choices and the ability to take advantage of such opportunities.

To say people dont have ambition is wrong- they just have different ambitions to the ones you distinguish. I managed a lady once when i was a younger go-getter, she made me cross that she wasnt like me, climbing the corporate ladder. Took me a while to get she was a mother of 2 and not interested in my ambition or that of the business. That did not make her lazy or bad.

You make too many judgements based on your own experiences. Fair enough as that is what we do but its the applying them to others that you constantly trip up over imo.

You are by no means the only one.

Hello again radford, just clocked on to learn where I may be going astray again and it looks as though you might be including me in the last line of your post. And like most of us my opinions in the main are based on my own experiences but also hope that I'm flexible enough to moderate my views when applying them to others.
I know a good many young people in their 20s and older and get invited to some of their nights out and suchlike and do notice that in general most of them think nothing of spending $200 on booze for the evening, nor does it bother them for taking the weekend away with the costs maybe running into the thousands. And eventually most of them will think of settling down, then comes the reality of financing a house and the realisation that it's out of reach, all the good times forgotten. The point I'm trying to make is that you can't have your cake and eat it. Years ago the message was much clearer, there wasn't the cash around from the word go and we learned early to live within our means. And the means didn't go far either.
There is another point which matters and that is that I think we have a better standard of living than the average UK person and it's reflected in my opinions.

 

[da fuq]

Unfortunately all the signs seem to be pointing to us ending in a depression not a recession

Should be fun once Furlough stops and Brexit kicks in

 

[Lienking]

It is the level and number of assumptions you make that i seek to challenge. The idea that people are free leaves me unsure of wether to laugh or cry. Not all people have the same choices- obviously people's circumstances affect those choices and the ability to take advantage of such opportunities.

To say people dont have ambition is wrong- they just have different ambitions to the ones you distinguish. I managed a lady once when i was a younger go-getter, she made me cross that she wasnt like me, climbing the corporate ladder. Took me a while to get she was a mother of 2 and not interested in my ambition or that of the business. That did not make her lazy or bad.

You make too many judgements based on your own experiences. Fair enough as that is what we do but its the applying them to others that you constantly trip up over imo.

You are by no means the only one.

The judgements are put in by you. I haven't said anything about lazy, bad, or generalising about lack of ambition being a bad thing. We all want different things in life There are clearly people who don't have the working ambition of others though . That means they don't want to move to a job with more responsibility, not that they are lazy or not doing their current job properly. I haven't made any judgements on anyone, just saying that going to Uni and the stresses of exams and running up debt doesn't seem to be the best way of targeting a minimum wage career, which was what we were originally talking about.

 

[Pearced]

Caveat Emptor? https://www.businessinsider.com/bre...2zBhl2X4R_CUo5W5KX2aV9N7q_9Hgk-HNxv7jFzgTR8lw

 

[Pearced]

The Guardian I'm afraid has turned into the left wing Daily Mail. It's just a dog whistle for left wing dogma without too much substance. Shame as I used to be a subscriber.
.

What a ridiculous comment. Firstly, the Guardian is slightly right of centre and the Mail tells outright lies consistently (worse even than the Sun and the Express and even Fox News). The Guardian comes nowhere near. Anyway, don't you read the French papers where you spend your leisure hours?

 

[radfordinlondon]

It's also difficult to quantify value in humanities, when everything has to be measured and assigned a worth how do you do that in art history or philosophy etc?

Businesses have taken what they feel is valuable, eg social psychology and turned it into consumer behaviour ad infinitum.

Social cohesion swapped for brand loyalty

Makes me sick, then again i am hot and more grumpy than usual

 

[radfordinlondon]

The judgements are put in by you. I haven't said anything about lazy, bad, or generalising about lack of ambition being a bad thing. We all want different things in life . That means they don't want to move to a job with more responsibility, not that they are lazy or not doing their current job properly. I haven't made any judgements on anyone, just saying that going to Uni and the stresses of exams and running up debt doesn't seem to be the best way of targeting a minimum wage career, which was what we were originally talking about.

You certainly gave me that impression.

Even here u are assuming that the people who went through all the stress, expense etc but are now on minimum wage were aiming for that- unlikely. More to do with rapid structural economic changes?

 

[radfordinlondon]

Hello again radford, just clocked on to learn where I may be going astray again and it looks as though you might be including me in the last line of your post. And like most of us my opinions in the main are based on my own experiences but also hope that I'm flexible enough to moderate my views when applying them to others.
I know a good many young people in their 20s and older and get invited to some of their nights out and suchlike and do notice that in general most of them think nothing of spending $200 on booze for the evening, nor does it bother them for taking the weekend away with the costs maybe running into the thousands. And eventually most of them will think of settling down, then comes the reality of financing a house and the realisation that it's out of reach, all the good times forgotten. The point I'm trying to make is that you can't have your cake and eat it. Years ago the message was much clearer, there wasn't the cash around from the word go and we learned early to live within our means. And the means didn't go far either.
There is another point which matters and that is that I think we have a better standard of living than the average UK person and it's reflected in my opinions.

I wasnt including u specially cos we are all guilty to an extent, but if the cap fits...

The question i would ask okd is how and where in the world did these 20 something profligates learn such behaviour? Who allows and supports such poor decision making?

Wish i could write this upside down but answer is a. Old people b. Old people working for big companies

The current system of capitalism requires consumers and thus are consumers produced.

Im not a rabid anti capitalist but there is no doubt or lack of evidence that the current system, without change, is and will continue to take the planet further up shit creek.

 

[radfordinlondon]

Caveat Emptor? https://www.businessinsider.com/bre...2zBhl2X4R_CUo5W5KX2aV9N7q_9Hgk-HNxv7jFzgTR8lw

Not surprising really, covid, big economic recession, china vs america, climate change, brexit- all of it making people think about working together more, not less.

 

[Strett]

16-18 year olds should be encouraged more to go on apprenticeships. Earn while you learn and get experience that many employees require.
At our place the machine shop is staffed with over 100 and more than half have come through the apprentice program. We pay well whilst on the program and many 22-25 year olds have their own house, a career and no student debt.
This is also valuable to fill the gaps in the UKs STEM vocations in the years to come.

 

[Strett]

16-18 year olds should be encouraged more to go on apprenticeships. Earn while you learn and get experience that many employees require.
At our place the machine shop is staffed with over 100 and more than half have come through the apprentice program. We pay well whilst on the program and many 22-25 year olds have their own house, a career and no student debt.
This is also valuable to fill the gaps in the UKs STEM vocations in the years to come.

One of my apprentices has just finished his one year BEng top-up and has come away with a 2:1 He has now got a fantastic career ahead of him, he owns a brand new car, is looking to put a deposit on a house and he has just turned 22. No debt and 4 years' of experience in a respected aerospace/defence company.
Uni as a default needs addressing, IMO, the other pathways need championing.

 

[Strett]

One of my apprentices has just finished his one year BEng top-up and has come away with a 2:1 He has now got a fantastic career ahead of him, he owns a brand new car, is looking to put a deposit on a house and he has just turned 22. No debt and 4 years' of experience in a respected aerospace/defence company.
Uni as a default needs addressing, IMO, the other pathways need championing.

Also if anybody on here is interested in a family member becoming an apprentice, then PM me as we are always looking.

 

[Pope John XXIII]

One of my apprentices has just finished his one year BEng top-up and has come away with a 2:1 He has now got a fantastic career ahead of him, he owns a brand new car, is looking to put a deposit on a house and he has just turned 22. No debt and 4 years' of experience in a respected aerospace/defence company.
Uni as a default needs addressing, IMO, the other pathways need championing.

That's lovely.

Degree apprenticeships are rare as hens teeth and ultra competitive to get on though. Would be great if the number were massively expanded; but it's not going to be