Brexit rolls on... | Page 120 | Vital Football

Brexit rolls on...

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strettea red said:
So, no stats then. Anecdotes don't cut it.
So unless anybody can post stats stating 'Most people who voted leave thought it would immediately result in the immediate deportation of any 'forinz' apart from footballers.' We should probably request that statement gets withdrawn.
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Some irony here considering your posts yesterday which you eventually walked back.
 
mao tse tung said:
Hitchens Razor; claims that the burden of proof regarding the truthfulness of a claim lies with the one who makes the claim.......

And that is from a Journalist who wrote for the Daily Express.

You could not make it up.
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Strange you choose that 18 months in a quite brilliant career including Socialist Worker party for example, but you'll probably know the Daily Express in the 80s was nothing like it is today.
It almost like you have an agenda.

Cricky having a go at Christopher Hitchens is quite weird, and it'd almost suggest you knew nothing about him until you Googled and cherry-picked something to downgrade him. Most odd.
 
mao tse tung said:
Schumaker is head and shoulders the best there has been in the modern era.

Its all well and good bigging up Hamilton, who has always driven one of the top cars since his introduction to the Sport, but he not not done what Schmaker has done and gone into struggling teams and turned them into World Champions.

Lets not forget Hamilton could not get close to Vettal when he was driving that all conquering Red Bull; not until the big boys ganged up on them and declared a car, which complied in every way possible, to be illegal.

Schumaker turned a Benneton Team, with a previous record on 5 GP wins in around 300 attempts into Constructer's Champions within 5 years, winning the title twice while doing so.

He then went to a struggling Ferrari team, who had not won a Constructers Championship for 13 Years, and did what the likes of Alesi, Prost, Mansell and Berger could not do, win one at his third attempt.

Hamilton in comparison, drives an incredibly fast car in an era were only two or three cars are actually capable of winning a race; not much of a comparison really.
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Not a bit of this is true, at all.

For a start, Schumacher went into a race winning Benetton team and benefitted massively in 94 from a) Senna's struggle to adapt to Williams and then the fallout from his death
B) having a highly illegal traction control system on his car, which the FIA knew about but couldn't prove, hence why Schumacher tended to get a lot of in race penalties that season, and
C) blatent cheating in taking out Hill in the last race, for which he should he been stripped of the title.

In 95 his Benetton was nearly as good as Hill's, and Hill was no F1 legend. Good driver, worthy champion, but no great. His team mate Coulthard was a total rookie and Williams were in disarray.

He then went to Ferrari. They hadn't won a title in nearly 30 years, but they were never shit. Always potential race winners, always top 3 or 4, and they hired Ross Brawn who was the brain's behind it.

Schumi still tried to cheat once again in 97 by taking out Villeneuve; didn't work that time though.

Two years of battling Hakkinen followed, who was about the best championship rival he faced; and in three seasons as rivals Hakkinen won in two of them (admittedly in 99 Schumacher missed a lot with a broken leg).

5 consecutive years followed of having the best car by a mile, until Renault suddenly had the best car and the championships dried up.

You forget as well that Schumacher had it written into his contract that the Ferrari no.2 driver could not race him and could not compete for the championship. You also forget how many times Irvine or Barrichello had to follow team orders to let Schumacher take the win; it was loads. How many of those 91 wins were earned by someone else and gifted to him? I'm guessing less than 10, but close to it.

How many of Hamilton's 92 have been given him by team orders? There probably have been occasions but I cannot think of any.

Hamilton came to a McLaren team that did not have the best car and had not done so for years. In 2007 McLaren had not had a champion for 8 years. In his rookie season he came within a couple of points of being champion, and absolutely should have won it; against the reigning double champion Alonso in the same car.

He then won it on the last corner of the last race in 08, before the new rules came in and caught everyone out but Brawn. McLaren have never completed again, his 2009 car was an absolute dog and I think he still won 3 races.

He's then joined a Mercedes team that hasn't won in closer to 50 years and built them into a modern F1 Behemoth. He hasn't had the best car every year; definately not in 19 and probably not in 18, but he swept the title easily in both seasons. He has never had a teammate signed just to support him; every team mate has been there as a genuine championship rival, and he has beaten them all.

Schumacher raced Mansell, Prost and Senna; but at the very end of their careers; literally the first two retired in succession before Schumacher was really competitive and Senna died when he would have had years of denying Schumacher titles otherwise. Hakkinen was then the best driver that Schumacher competed with. In his 5 title years there was literally no one competing against him.

Hamilton came into F1 battling Alonso in his prime, then Schumacher and Vettel. He is consistently pissing on Verstappen and Leclerc, the next two champions of F1. Hamilton has raced and beaten the next two best drivers in terms of championships and race wins; Schumacher didn't

There is no question that Schumacher and Hamilton can be compared in a way Hamilton and others can't. Hamilton isn't a cheat. Hamilton has beaten all but one of Schumacher's records and still has 2 years at least in him. He also makes fewer mistakes; Schumacher himself admitted he made at least one a year (look at Canada in 99). Hamilton very, very rarely makes those kinds of mistakes; I think we would be talking years between them.

No doubt at all for me that Hamilton is and will be the superior driver.

And Schumacher won with Ferrari at his 5th attempt
 
strettea red said:
Strange you choose that 18 months in a quite brilliant career including Socialist Worker party for example, but you'll probably know the Daily Express in the 80s was nothing like it is today.
It almost like you have an agenda.

Cricky having a go at Christopher Hitchens is quite weird, and it'd almost suggest you knew nothing about him until you Googled and cherry-picked something to downgrade him. Most odd.
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I always get the Hitchin's mixed up, but find them just as loathsome as each other.
 
strettea red said:
You do know that is why, don't you? It can only be equatable on here if people post statements, they should be able to be backed up with facts.
You must agree.
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The issue here is what constitutes as a fact and that is a matter of opinion.

Of the dozens of people I've spoken to that supported Brexit - the majority (at least two-thirds) supported Brexit for the reasons that I mentioned.

Are dozens of people enough to make it a fact? Perhaps not. But it does make it a fact that the majority of people I spoke to that supported Brexit shared these views.

As I don't live in the UK, I like to gauge a variety of people's opinions on important matters whenever I come back.

My favourite example was in a pub in Hartlepool. Now this was even in a pub that would be considered very posh by Hartlepool's standards, so who knows what opinions would have been had in a less salubrious establishment.

I asked a lad in his mid-20s what he thought of Brexit. He responded, "It's good. We need to get these Turks out." Despite the fact that Brexit would not impact the status of any Turks in the UK (unless Cypriot Turks of course), I decided to bit my tongue.

Then his mate responded, "What are you even on about, you twat? There's four Turks in the whole of flippin' Hartlepool and you went to their barber shop today for a haircut and they did a decent job, might I add?"

Whilst this is only one example (albeit my favourite), it's fairly typical of conversations I had at the time in the North East, Yorkshire, Notts and the West Midlands.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Not a bit of this is true, at all.

For a start, Schumacher went into a race winning Benetton team and benefitted massively in 94 from a) Senna's struggle to adapt to Williams and then the fallout from his death
B) having a highly illegal traction control system on his car, which the FIA knew about but couldn't prove, hence why Schumacher tended to get a lot of in race penalties that season, and
C) blatent cheating in taking out Hill in the last race, for which he should he been stripped of the title.

In 95 his Benetton was nearly as good as Hill's, and Hill was no F1 legend. Good driver, worthy champion, but no great. His team mate Coulthard was a total rookie and Williams were in disarray.

He then went to Ferrari. They hadn't won a title in nearly 30 years, but they were never shit. Always potential race winners, always top 3 or 4, and they hired Ross Brawn who was the brain's behind it.

Schumi still tried to cheat once again in 97 by taking out Villeneuve; didn't work that time though.

Two years of battling Hakkinen followed, who was about the best championship rival he faced; and in three seasons as rivals Hakkinen won in two of them (admittedly in 99 Schumacher missed a lot with a broken leg).

5 consecutive years followed of having the best car by a mile, until Renault suddenly had the best car and the championships dried up.

You forget as well that Schumacher had it written into his contract that the Ferrari no.2 driver could not race him and could not compete for the championship. You also forget how many times Irvine or Barrichello had to follow team orders to let Schumacher take the win; it was loads. How many of those 91 wins were earned by someone else and gifted to him? I'm guessing less than 10, but close to it.

How many of Hamilton's 92 have been given him by team orders? There probably have been occasions but I cannot think of any.

Hamilton came to a McLaren team that did not have the best car and had not done so for years. In 2007 McLaren had not had a champion for 8 years. In his rookie season he came within a couple of points of being champion, and absolutely should have won it; against the reigning double champion Alonso in the same car.

He then won it on the last corner of the last race in 08, before the new rules came in and caught everyone out but Brawn. McLaren have never completed again, his 2009 car was an absolute dog and I think he still won 3 races.

He's then joined a Mercedes team that hasn't won in closer to 50 years and built them into a modern F1 Behemoth. He hasn't had the best car every year; definately not in 19 and probably not in 18, but he swept the title easily in both seasons. He has never had a teammate signed just to support him; every team mate has been there as a genuine championship rival, and he has beaten them all.

Schumacher raced Mansell, Prost and Senna; but at the very end of their careers; literally the first two retired in succession before Schumacher was really competitive and Senna died when he would have had years of denying Schumacher titles otherwise. Hakkinen was then the best driver that Schumacher competed with. In his 5 title years there was literally no one competing against him.

Hamilton came into F1 battling Alonso in his prime, then Schumacher and Vettel. He is consistently pissing on Verstappen and Leclerc, the next two champions of F1. Hamilton has raced and beaten the next two best drivers in terms of championships and race wins; Schumacher didn't

There is no question that Schumacher and Hamilton can be compared in a way Hamilton and others can't. Hamilton isn't a cheat. Hamilton has beaten all but one of Schumacher's records and still has 2 years at least in him. He also makes fewer mistakes; Schumacher himself admitted he made at least one a year (look at Canada in 99). Hamilton very, very rarely makes those kinds of mistakes; I think we would be talking years between them.

No doubt at all for me that Hamilton is and will be the superior driver.

And Schumacher won with Ferrari at his 5th attempt
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1000% accurate. The fact that Hamilton should have won in his first year is an absolute miracle in this sport. Had he done so, would have been one of sports, any sports, most incredible achievements.
Also Hamilton has raced in approx 50 less GPs than Schumacher
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Not a bit of this is true, at all.

For a start, Schumacher went into a race winning Benetton team and benefitted massively in 94 from a) Senna's struggle to adapt to Williams and then the fallout from his death
B) having a highly illegal traction control system on his car, which the FIA knew about but couldn't prove, hence why Schumacher tended to get a lot of in race penalties that season, and
C) blatent cheating in taking out Hill in the last race, for which he should he been stripped of the title.

In 95 his Benetton was nearly as good as Hill's, and Hill was no F1 legend. Good driver, worthy champion, but no great. His team mate Coulthard was a total rookie and Williams were in disarray.

He then went to Ferrari. They hadn't won a title in nearly 30 years, but they were never shit. Always potential race winners, always top 3 or 4, and they hired Ross Brawn who was the brain's behind it.

Schumi still tried to cheat once again in 97 by taking out Villeneuve; didn't work that time though.

Two years of battling Hakkinen followed, who was about the best championship rival he faced; and in three seasons as rivals Hakkinen won in two of them (admittedly in 99 Schumacher missed a lot with a broken leg).

5 consecutive years followed of having the best car by a mile, until Renault suddenly had the best car and the championships dried up.

You forget as well that Schumacher had it written into his contract that the Ferrari no.2 driver could not race him and could not compete for the championship. You also forget how many times Irvine or Barrichello had to follow team orders to let Schumacher take the win; it was loads. How many of those 91 wins were earned by someone else and gifted to him? I'm guessing less than 10, but close to it.

How many of Hamilton's 92 have been given him by team orders? There probably have been occasions but I cannot think of any.

Hamilton came to a McLaren team that did not have the best car and had not done so for years. In 2007 McLaren had not had a champion for 8 years. In his rookie season he came within a couple of points of being champion, and absolutely should have won it; against the reigning double champion Alonso in the same car.

He then won it on the last corner of the last race in 08, before the new rules came in and caught everyone out but Brawn. McLaren have never completed again, his 2009 car was an absolute dog and I think he still won 3 races.

He's then joined a Mercedes team that hasn't won in closer to 50 years and built them into a modern F1 Behemoth. He hasn't had the best car every year; definately not in 19 and probably not in 18, but he swept the title easily in both seasons. He has never had a teammate signed just to support him; every team mate has been there as a genuine championship rival, and he has beaten them all.

Schumacher raced Mansell, Prost and Senna; but at the very end of their careers; literally the first two retired in succession before Schumacher was really competitive and Senna died when he would have had years of denying Schumacher titles otherwise. Hakkinen was then the best driver that Schumacher competed with. In his 5 title years there was literally no one competing against him.

Hamilton came into F1 battling Alonso in his prime, then Schumacher and Vettel. He is consistently pissing on Verstappen and Leclerc, the next two champions of F1. Hamilton has raced and beaten the next two best drivers in terms of championships and race wins; Schumacher didn't

There is no question that Schumacher and Hamilton can be compared in a way Hamilton and others can't. Hamilton isn't a cheat. Hamilton has beaten all but one of Schumacher's records and still has 2 years at least in him. He also makes fewer mistakes; Schumacher himself admitted he made at least one a year (look at Canada in 99). Hamilton very, very rarely makes those kinds of mistakes; I think we would be talking years between them.

No doubt at all for me that Hamilton is and will be the superior driver.

And Schumacher won with Ferrari at his 5th attempt
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Benneton a race winning team?

They won 5 races over a five year spell before Schumacher joined and only 2 more over the next two seasons; that is hardly a race winning team.

The traction control issue was utter bollocks; Benetton eventually handed over the source code from their engine management system which proved conclusively nothing was untoward, but the rumours would not go away.

And it is totally correct that it took 16 years for Ferrari to win the Constructors title; 13 years prior to Schumacher joining was the last time when Rene Arnoux was driving for them - 1983

And Rory Byrne played a far bigger role at Ferrari than Brawn did, but both have mentioned plenty of times the role Schumacher played; he was described as a genius at knowing how to set a car up, the best since Lauda.

He was guilty as charged over the Damon Hill incident and its that what has coloured everyone's judgement against him.

Team orders have been in place for as long as I can remember and Hamilton will have benefitted from them just as much as anyone.

In fact was it not Hamilton who played a part in driving Alonso out of McLaren?

I seem to remember it, was so he is not totally devoid of employing dirty tricks himself.

It does not matter how many good drivers are around these days, and there does not appear to be many, there are only two or three cars, at the most, which can win a race, and that will not change anytime soon because the big boys will not allow it to.

They decide who gets what engine and gets the best tyres and decide which technology can be used; its a massive carve up.

The game has given in to financial doping; it is dead as a spectator sport; If I am paying the best part of £200 to get in I want to see a race not a fucking procession.
 
ZedRed said:
The issue here is what constitutes as a fact and that is a matter of opinion.

Of the dozens of people I've spoken to that supported Brexit - the majority (at least two-thirds) supported Brexit for the reasons that I mentioned.

Are dozens of people enough to make it a fact? Perhaps not. But it does make it a fact that the majority of people I spoke to that supported Brexit shared these views.

As I don't live in the UK, I like to gauge a variety of people's opinions on important matters whenever I come back.

My favourite example was in a pub in Hartlepool. Now this was even in a pub that would be considered very posh by Hartlepool's standards, so who knows what opinions would have been had in a less salubrious establishment.

I asked a lad in his mid-20s what he thought of Brexit. He responded, "It's good. We need to get these Turks out." Despite the fact that Brexit would not impact the status of any Turks in the UK (unless Cypriot Turks of course), I decided to bit my tongue.

Then his mate responded, "What are you even on about, you twat? There's four Turks in the whole of flippin' Hartlepool and you went to their barber shop today for a haircut and they did a decent job, might I add?"

Whilst this is only one example (albeit my favourite), it's fairly typical of conversations I had at the time in the North East, Yorkshire, Notts and the West Midlands.
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Agree with all that, there are some perfect nut jobs about.
Just look at that lady on Question Time a couple of years' ago, whose main issue with Brexit was being worried about who is gonna server her coffee in Pret?
 
strettea red said:
Agree with all that, there are some perfect nut jobs about.
Just look at that lady on Question Time a couple of years' ago, whose main issue with Brexit was being worried about who is gonna server her coffee in Pret?
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His rational mate later told me that a bird that the idiot fancied was going out with one of the Turks LOL.
 
mao tse tung said:
Benneton a race winning team?

They won 5 races over a five year spell before Schumacher joined and only 2 more over the next two seasons; that is hardly a race winning team.

The traction control issue was utter bollocks; Benetton eventually handed over the source code from their engine management system which proved conclusively nothing was untoward, but the rumours would not go away.

And it is totally correct that it took 16 years for Ferrari to win the Constructors title; 13 years prior to Schumacher joining was the last time when Rene Arnoux was driving for them - 1983

And Rory Byrne played a far bigger role at Ferrari than Brawn did, but both have mentioned plenty of times the role Schumacher played; he was described as a genius at knowing how to set a car up, the best since Lauda.

He was guilty as charged over the Damon Hill incident and its that what has coloured everyone's judgement against him.

Team orders have been in place for as long as I can remember and Hamilton will have benefitted from them just as much as anyone.

In fact was it not Hamilton who played a part in driving Alonso out of McLaren?

I seem to remember it, was so he is not totally devoid of employing dirty tricks himself.

It does not matter how many good drivers are around these days, and there does not appear to be many, there are only two or three cars, at the most, which can win a race, and that will not change anytime soon because the big boys will not allow it to.

They decide who gets what engine and gets the best tyres and decide which technology can be used; its a massive carve up.

The game has given in to financial doping; it is dead as a spectator sport; If I am paying the best part of £200 to get in I want to see a race not a fucking procession.
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Hamilton was a rookie. Alonso could not handle that his teammate in year 1 was a better driver than him. He ran off because he knew he couldn't beat him.
So yes Hamiltons talent in his first year contributed to driving Alonso and his ego away from McClaren
 
finbar70 said:
Hamilton was a rookie. Alonso could not handle that his teammate in year 1 was a better driver than him. He ran off because he knew he couldn't beat him.
So yes Hamiltons talent in his first year contributed to driving Alonso and his ego away from McClaren
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Alonso knew of some technical wrongdoing at McLaren. I can't remember what, it was nothing to do with Hamilton and I'm not sure it was performance related.

Alonso threw a strop mid season because he expected Hamilton to be his number 2 and stand aside for him; a precedent for champions set by Schumacher. Yet Hamilton was winning races and leading him in the standings.

So he decided to quit and fuck McLaren over in the process by sharing those emails (IIRC). McLaren were thrown out of that year's constructors championship.

So yes, it was Hamilton pushing Alonso out- from the POV of the rookie being better than the double champion from day one and said double champion not being very warm to that reality
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Alonso knew of some technical wrongdoing at McLaren. I can't remember what, it was nothing to do with Hamilton and I'm not sure it was performance related.

Alonso threw a strop mid season because he expected Hamilton to be his number 2 and stand aside for him; a precedent for champions set by Schumacher. Yet Hamilton was winning races and leading him in the standings.

So he decided to quit and fuck McLaren over in the process by sharing those emails (IIRC). McLaren were thrown out of that year's constructors championship.

So yes, it was Hamilton pushing Alonso out- from the POV of the rookie being better than the double champion from day one and said double champion not being very warm to that reality
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This strop was underlined when they double-stacked and Alonso deliberately hung around to as to impair his teammate. Classy...

 
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