Bolton....interesting... | Page 42 | Vital Football

Bolton....interesting...

Listen mate, as I'm not Inspector Clouseau, I've no idea if you're a genuine Tic, or a Trotter.

If it's the former, then maybe I should owe you an apology ................... cos I think it's the latter ................ in which case, nah, don't bother with the morrow .......or any other day.

Ta

He's neither Moonay. He's a Tyke.
 
There was some pretty nasty stuff written on here when we were going through the mill and to be fair we were something of a laughing stock but now you can perhaps appreciate the other side of the coin. Wanderers were backed by a lifelong fan in Edwin D and at least he did the decent thing and wrote off most of the debt which he personally built. He also stepped in to save the club with a last minute £5m loan to pay HMRC during Anderson’s time but sadly died shortly after on holiday leaving Anderson to cause his mayhem. Yes we spent way above our means but what a period that was. You didn’t spend big but you did spend and the club was having to be supported too so you can’t claim to be faultless. Hopefully your debts and running costs are low enough to encourage a buyer to take them on and I genuinely wish you luck on that. I don’t want you to be another Bury so despite the hacking you gave us I hope things turn out positively as they seem to have for us.
 
Well said Warren...Reading back there was some less than savoury stuff but not a lot of vitriol. Not many wanted you out of business but it's always nice to see a rival with a bloody nose.....much like you lot will with us now.
 
I think you're right Warren ....... there probably was some nasty stuff written ....... but on here. Not on your site. If anyone cam across to your site to crow and gloat, then they're just as bad.

You've been straight up all along, so thank you.

The period you had with Okocha, Anelka, Campo, the little greek ............you were decent to watch to be fair ..................hope things turn out OK for you too. Not sure all the site share those sentiments mind.
 
There was some pretty nasty stuff written on here when we were going through the mill and to be fair we were something of a laughing stock but now you can perhaps appreciate the other side of the coin. Wanderers were backed by a lifelong fan in Edwin D and at least he did the decent thing and wrote off most of the debt which he personally built. He also stepped in to save the club with a last minute £5m loan to pay HMRC during Anderson’s time but sadly died shortly after on holiday leaving Anderson to cause his mayhem. Yes we spent way above our means but what a period that was. You didn’t spend big but you did spend and the club was having to be supported too so you can’t claim to be faultless. Hopefully your debts and running costs are low enough to encourage a buyer to take them on and I genuinely wish you luck on that. I don’t want you to be another Bury so despite the hacking you gave us I hope things turn out positively as they seem to have for us.

There were some nasty things written, there were plenty other posts that were more sympathetic to your plight.
The level headed amongst us don't doubt that we have lived beyond our means but I for one thought he were moving towards a more sustainable business model., The youth setup had been developed beyond all recognition and was starting to produce genuine quality with potentially good sale (and therefore profit) value, we were also starting to be successful in buying young, but already semi developed talent (Robinson, Kipre, Williams) and coaching them quickly to get both benefit on the pitch now and likely turn a tidy profit in the future. We'd also made some shrewd signings with some of the older journeymen in the squad, not massive wages, not long contracts, but which added the necessary experience and also provided great role models for the youngsters. Everything in my opinion was heading to a far healthier place financially and on the pitch ..... Until, inexplicably (certainly from a timing and finance point of view) the plug was pulled in the flash of an eye. I can';t think of any other club where that has ever happened before and that's what's left a lot of us stunned, defensive, looking for someone to blame and to direct our anger towards.
I expected (and to a point) don't mind the stick from Wanderers fans, as you said, enough of ours were giving it the other way not so long ago. The really sad thing is a fairly sizeable section of the Barnsley fans reaction. Beggars belief when even someone from our bitterest local rivals (you) has shown more class than almost every one of that lot that I've encountered.
 
There was some pretty nasty stuff written on here when we were going through the mill and to be fair we were something of a laughing stock but now you can perhaps appreciate the other side of the coin. Wanderers were backed by a lifelong fan in Edwin D and at least he did the decent thing and wrote off most of the debt which he personally built. He also stepped in to save the club with a last minute £5m loan to pay HMRC during Anderson’s time but sadly died shortly after on holiday leaving Anderson to cause his mayhem. Yes we spent way above our means but what a period that was. You didn’t spend big but you did spend and the club was having to be supported too so you can’t claim to be faultless. Hopefully your debts and running costs are low enough to encourage a buyer to take them on and I genuinely wish you luck on that. I don’t want you to be another Bury so despite the hacking you gave us I hope things turn out positively as they seem to have for us.
But again the two cases are poles apart. The only thing in common is poor owners.
Bolton gained a promotion whilst over spending and not paying bills. Latics were just dumped.
 
Think Bolton are in for a very good season Warren looking at some of the players you've signed. I know there's a lot of frees but they must be on top whack league two wages. Does it concern you where this money has come from and are you signing all these lads prior to salary cap implementation? Not intended as a dig, genuine question.

Gives hope for us in twelve months at least (maybe, hopefully, who knows)
 
Think Bolton are in for a very good season Warren looking at some of the players you've signed. I know there's a lot of frees but they must be on top whack league two wages. Does it concern you where this money has come from and are you signing all these lads prior to salary cap implementation? Not intended as a dig, genuine question.

Gives hope for us in twelve months at least (maybe, hopefully, who knows)

I know this wasn't directed at me but I'll give it a go.

I think it's the most positive I've seen Bolton fans for years. Ian Evatt talks the talk and wants to play attractive winning football. Our recruitment looks to be in line with the manager's style and there seems to be a genuine plan built around a good core of players.

We've signed Doyle (L2s top goalscorer last year), Sarcevic (Promoted Plymouth's Player of Year), Delfounso (League 1 level player).

3 renewed first team contracts, Politic and Darcy who are youth players working up and Crawford who was our best player last year. Finally signed 4 or 5 non league players and loans.

Now - a lot of people are now saying that we're buying the league/overspending again due to us signing so many players in such a short time.

In reality probably only Doyle, Sarcevic, Delfounso are big earners for L2. But still, imagine we have 23 players this season, some big earners on maybe 2k a week and lower earners on maybe £700 a week. Average that out - say an optimistic 1k a week on 23 players. That's at least a million pounds a year on player wages alone. Don't forget the managing staff, hotel staff, groundsmen, media team etc etc. And some of those contracts are for 2 or 3 years, committed spending.

I'm no expert on finances and I don't know where to find all the relevant evidence but I'm sure I have read that we have a loan from the owners to the club to fund this. I don't know how much the loan is or what interest repayments are.

Does it concern me/other Bolton fans where the money comes from? I would probably say no, but most of your fans would've said the same a year ago about where the money comes from to fund your player wages.

In reality, most don't care until something like admin happens and I think it's incredibly concerning that something like your situation can happen where someone just turns off the tap in an instant. With Bolton the writing was most certainly on the wall, at least under Ken Anderson's ownership.

Ultimately it comes down to trust. So far our new owners have said all the right things, they seem to be genuine, good, open people with a plan to invest in Bolton, with the idea that the club can become self sustainable, if not profitable at some point.

If you look at Brentford's model over the last several years, they have an unbelievable transfer record, signing players for low sums, developing them and selling for a better value. I think that's FV's idea with Bolton.

So on the topic of trust - How open was Stanley Choi when he came in? Was there plan to develop, was he just gambling on getting promoted and if it didn't happen was this always his plan? I don't know.

Are Bolton spending beyond our means again because someone has come in that looks to be a good owner? I don't know. It depends on your perspective.

It's not a clear answer, because you can either look at it that, the owners ARE the club, or the club is a separate entity from the owners.

Should Bolton and Wigan and every other club only spend what they KNOW they can recoup from gate receipts and merchandise?

If an owner wants to come in and invest in a club and community, should they not be allowed to do that due to the chance that they may be a Ken Anderson or a Stanley Choi?

I've seen a lot of double standards in football fan's opinions, not necessarily only Wigan fans, but I think @jeffs right illustrates it perfectly (not a dig).

"Bolton gained promotion by overspending and not paying bills" a fair point, was it fair that Ken Anderson made promises he knew he couldnt keep? Absolutely not.

But for Wigan, had you not had the wages paid every week since IEC's takeover, your club makes nowhere near the amount of money required for that without outside investment, so you could say that you are also "overspending". Without the money that has been paid to players this year, what would your squad actually look like, if it was on a more sustainable budget?

I'm not trying to rile you guys up here but I'm trying to have a reasoned debate on the complicated matter of football owners. Apologies for the long message.

Yes @jeffs right Latics were just dumped, but does that make it any different when you really break it down? Wigan, Bolton and most clubs rely on funding from an investor or benefactor. It makes for interesting cyclical eras in clubs histories. Because the EFL doesn't force clubs to live within their means, clubs like Bolton, Wigan can have incredible highs in the Premier League but also awful lows like your current situation.
 
And on the topic of any nasty stuff written on here about our situation last year, look it's football, there are rivals and everyone loves to chat shit and no one wants to have to take it back and many Bolton fans would look at this as karma or whatever. I don't see it that way.

End of the day, there will be insensitive comments, that's life you're going to get offended, whether it's Wigan, Bolton or Barnsley, whoever the fuck you want.

I think everyone can take abuse about an actual game of football in return for dishing it out when the time is right.

What people are less tolerant of is relishing the misfortune of others (i.e. administration) and I think that's down to people not understanding the tenuous line most clubs are treading on and that this situation could happen to any club outside of the established elite.

People want to rile up their rivals but when it comes to the very existence of a club, where people's jobs are on the line, people's passions. It's easy to see how it all becomes toxic.

I think everyone could do with being a bit more empathetic about other clubs but that's not going to happen because it doesn't matter until its your club thats in the shit.
 
There's too many teams..said it for years and in the current climate its unsustainable. At least this flushes out the owners that are c**ts, unfortunately we had one of the biggest. Pies warned us all ages ago but hardly anyone took it seriously.
 
Think Bolton are in for a very good season Warren looking at some of the players you've signed. I know there's a lot of frees but they must be on top whack league two wages. Does it concern you where this money has come from and are you signing all these lads prior to salary cap implementation? Not intended as a dig, genuine question.

Gives hope for us in twelve months at least (maybe, hopefully, who knows)

Actually Captain I don’t believe the majority of players we’ve signed will be on big L2 wages. The majority I think are more enticed by the prospect of playing for a “bigger” club, having mainly been in lower leagues, abroad or non league. Obviously the likes of Doyle, Delfouneso and Sarcevic will be bigger earners, as will probably Crawford and Darcy who we had last year but the others will be on much lower contracts. IE seems to be giving players a chance to shine as most signings are in their early twenties. I’m hopeful some will deliver but some probably won’t, we’ll have to see but like you I think we’ll be in for a good season.

I believe our new owners intend to run the club prudently and not get into the silly things done in the past, though I would say that if and when we do reach the Championship again, we may have to push the boat out. Actually I’ve never believed you’ve had to spend loads of cash to build a good team but you do have to be able to retain your better players if you want to make progress. As for Latics, you should easily be able to do the same next year. At L1 level you are one of the bigger clubs with a magnificent stadium and great facilities, which will become even more relevant to players if the salary cap sticks, so take what’s happened in your stride and come back all the stronger with a genuine, honest new owner.
 
And on the topic of any nasty stuff written on here about our situation last year, look it's football, there are rivals and everyone loves to chat shit and no one wants to have to take it back and many Bolton fans would look at this as karma or whatever. I don't see it that way.

End of the day, there will be insensitive comments, that's life you're going to get offended, whether it's Wigan, Bolton or Barnsley, whoever the fuck you want.

I think everyone can take abuse about an actual game of football in return for dishing it out when the time is right.

What people are less tolerant of is relishing the misfortune of others (i.e. administration) and I think that's down to people not understanding the tenuous line most clubs are treading on and that this situation could happen to any club outside of the established elite.

People want to rile up their rivals but when it comes to the very existence of a club, where people's jobs are on the line, people's passions. It's easy to see how it all becomes toxic.

I think everyone could do with being a bit more empathetic about other clubs but that's not going to happen because it doesn't matter until its your club thats in the shit.
I know what you mean so we should all be congratulating Barnsley for their great escape.
 
So on the topic of trust - How open was Stanley Choi when he came in? Was there plan to develop, was he just gambling on getting promoted and if it didn't happen was this always his plan? I don't know.

None of us know for sure .....as the shithouse never actually set foot in the place....not once.

It looks like he thought he could achieve Premiership and the money it brings with a certain outlay....when he realised it was more expensive than he thought and that after dropping a relative fortune (small in comparison to many Championship clubs) we were relegation candidates rather than even play off ‘possibles’ ....his arse dropped....and he then set about constructing this elaborate “bullshit sale“ of the club linking it to an absurdly usurious loan to try and get money back ...(we think)...Whether that loan is any longer in force is the subject of some extensive and agonised debate ....the Admins seemingly think not.... but opinion on the subject is divided ?
 
None of us know for sure .....as the shithouse never actually set foot in the place....not once.

It looks like he thought he could achieve Premiership and the money it brings with a certain outlay....when he realised it was more expensive than he thought and that after dropping a relative fortune (small in comparison to many Championship clubs) we were relegation candidates rather than even play off ‘possibles’ ....his arse dropped....and he then set about constructing this elaborate “bullshit sale“ of the club linking it to an absurdly usurious loan to try and get money back ...(we think)...Whether that loan is any longer in force is the subject of some extensive and agonised debate ....the Admins seemingly think not.... but opinion on the subject is divided ?
This won't be popular however if IECs only objective was to gate crash the prem why invest in the academy (and the big tele ?)
You could make a case that initial intentions were aligned with the statements on purchase then they got spooked and bailed ?
Even as late as last close season they could have gone "all in" on players rather than further infrastructure investment !
 
I know what you mean so we should all be congratulating Barnsley for their great escape.

Not at all. Why would you want to congratulate the team that are slating you for something totally out of your control and benefitted from your misfortune?

My point is that whether it was Barnsley or Charlton or anyone that stayed up instead of you, the reaction would probably have been similar. There's going to be fans who are respectful and fans who are disrespectful, it's wasted energy arguing with them because it achieves nothing. But maybe... just maybe, after going through such a horrible time as you are now, perhaps there could be some empathy for other clubs that have/will suffer the same fate.

You said last year, when we were in the shit: "Bolton Wanderers FC deserve everything that is thrown at them." and "Scummy Bolton just keep getting more and more time."

Obviously I disagree with those comments but... Do I think I can convince you to change your opinion on Bolton? No. So I won't waste my time. Hopefully the EFL affords you the same time that they did us, even if that makes us "scummy!"
 
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If we survive this shitstorm I will have zero empathy with anybody else going through the situation we are in...it just feels like vultures circling round for good players and willing to pay fuck all for the privilege , even though they all know how desperate we are for funds....like I say , I wish no-one any ill will but it's look after #1 from here on in.

Maybe my mood will lighten in a few months but at the moment I'm bitter about the whole bloody thing.