Bolton and Birmingham potential points deductions | Vital Football

Bolton and Birmingham potential points deductions

king_dezeeuw06

Vital Champions League
Bolton could be set to go into administration and see a 12 point deduction over missing loan repayments. Makes it even crazier they spent about 1.5m on 2 strikers in the window.

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/16833145.amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Birmingham also facing a 12 point deduction for breaking FFP but after the fiasco where QPR did much worse and managed to effectively negotiate their punishment down to a slap on the wrist when they shouldve been dragged over the coals it would shock me if Birmingham got anything like that.

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sp...on-efl-15126035.amp?__twitter_impression=true

Before a ball was kicked i think most of us were predicting lower mid table consolidation or relegation battle for us. But after how we've equiped ourselves so far and with so many clubs around us seeming to be in a mess on or off the field i think we've got a very good chance of staying clear of the drop zone and hopefully we can aim a lot higher.

But also a timely reminder of how important it is for us to keep on top of our finances. People have given Sharpe and Jackson a fair bit of stick over the last few years but for any of their flaws they've managed to avoid us falling into the situation Bolton and Birmingham have. Theyve continued to try and back the managers by sign players and keep what we have when possible so credit to them. But without the Prem money or new investment from new owners i fear we'd have to cut back on what we currently have to keep on the right side of FFP long term.
 
Last edited:
I posted a thread regarding our playing squad and the balance that we have, which seems to have been done the right way financially and otherwise for where we are. It doesn't surprise me to see that Birmingham and Bolton both find themselves in this mess, given how they've bankrolled a bloated playing squad and failed to make any headway, a high turnover of non playing staff and a reliance on the parachute payments to float the clubs. Of course, a number of our squad members are unknown quantities at this level however they're hungry and have bought into the Cook way. That level of stability has certainly been lacking at Birmingham.

As for Bolton, their transfers out over the last couple of season (Zach Clough, Rob Holding and Gary Madine) added up to close to £12m, which just goes to show how much of a mess they're in - looking at their transfer history shows a massive amount of free transfers in and out, which must be up there with the highest turnover of playing staff in the Football League.
 
After looking up Birmingham City's owner SUEN, CHO HUNG PAUL, he appears on the books of a few Mossack Fonseca companies based in the British Virgin Islands (which would avoid certain company and income tax laws), with intermediary companies and personnel, to run money in and out of China. The Chinese government backed deals to buy into sports franchises and Birmingham'rivals pretty much all have Chinese investment. Paul Suen is interesting in so much as he bought a Mayfair casino for £240m a couple of years ago.
 
Sharpe and Jackson deserve so much praise for keeping the club financially stable over the last few years despite suffering two relegations. With limited investment, it could've been very easy for the club to slip away from Championship contention but they've made sure the club have been able to compete without breaking the bank.

Of course, they've made mistakes too - those mistakes seem insignificant however when you see the mess allegedly 'experienced' chairman and owners of certain clubs at this level have gotten their clubs into recently.
 
The reason we are not in deep shut like Bolton is the same reason we are being taken over. One bloke/family has bailed the club out year after year. They have had enough and want out.

Just like what happened at Bolton, the difference is Whelan is doing it in a correct and sensible manner Bolton he just stopped putting money in and that was that.

And some on here still go on about a war chest
 
Birmingham’s owners are absolutely minted. But they have little knowledge about football, they sacked Rowett who was a good fit for them and doing well for a fancy name which failed. After Arry kept them up they threw the kitchen sink at it in the summer and failed to gain promotion. Now they will pay the penalty.

Makes it even more important to get Nick Powell signed up long term regardless of who our owners are. If we run into FFP trouble in one/two years time we can sell him for 20-25 million to balance our books.

The fact that Bolton were allowed to spend 1m on a striker last week without paying former players and other debts owed is an utter disgrace. They deserve everything they get!
 
20-25 million seems optimistic and considering his fitnes issues that he has had that's a gamble, but it is sensible to get the valuable and players on longish contracts.

However thats the gamble, if the manager leaves and we get Warren Joyce part 2 in and go down then the value of those goes down but the wages stay the same.

Had Whelan decided to pull out when he stepped down and not let his grandson have a go, we would have been in Boltons situation

We have been in that position many times in the past, going back to the Freddie Pye days, and then after Brian Heathcote left and we was only saved by the very much criticised Bill Kenyon came in and saved the day. HE may have had ideas that people didn't like but if it wasn't for him we would have gone under.

We then got Steven Gage and his gang came in and those were the dark days of 1200 people bothering to go, then the white knight turned up and the glory days started.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
20-25 million seems optimistic and considering his fitnes issues that he has had that's a gamble, but it is sensible to get the valuable and players on longish contracts.

However thats the gamble, if the manager leaves and we get Warren Joyce part 2 in and go down then the value of those goes down but the wages stay the same.

Had Whelan decided to pull out when he stepped down and not let his grandson have a go, we would have been in Boltons situation

We have been in that position many times in the past, going back to the Freddie Pye days, and then after Brian Heathcote left and we was only saved by the very much criticised Bill Kenyon came in and saved the day. HE may have had ideas that people didn't like but if it wasn't for him we would have gone under.

We then got Steven Gage and his gang came in and those were the dark days of 1200 people bothering to go, then the white knight turned up and the glory days started.

Would that be the same Bill Kenyon who settled out of court when Stephen Gage found a six figure black hole in the accounts when he took over??
 
The other thing with Bolton was even when their former owner was bank rolling them in the Prem they were stacking debt up like crazy. I remember when we were both in the Prem years ago around the time Bolton signed Elmander for 12m reading they had 200m in debt - i was stunned. It seemed Bolton were living way beyond their means and making no attempt to try and balance their finances even when the money was flowing in. They put themselves into a position where there was no way they could ever get back in the black if they got relegated. The ultimate case of not taking personal responsibility and living for today with no thought about tomorrow. We on the other hand were paying off our debts and trying to ensure we broke even at least for most of our years in the Prem, so while it was sometimes frustrating to not invest as much as we'd like on players it avoided us risking the type of disaster Bolton find themselves in. We've been ran very sensibly and when you see how our contemporaries at the time ended up it shows what we did was not the norm. Huge credit to the Whelan family again for their pragmatism when it seems all our rivals lost all perspective and gambled their futures away on bad bets.

Regarding Birmingham and the Chinese semi communist government; at the time they were encouraging European football club purchases and now pulling back on that type of foreign investment now - i do wonder if our takeover being structured in this perculiar way is a work around in some way. Apparently Villas money issues in the summer stemmed from him not being able to allowed to take the funds he wanted out of the Chinese economy. So it wouldn't shock me if the seemingly overly long and complex nature of our takeover is in some way linked to that.
 
Bolton chairmans statement reeks of 'everyones fault but mine' and tries to paint himself as the victim and the creditors unreasonable by glossing over the fact his creditors are only doing this as he hasn't honoured the original repayment terms.

Rumour going round they may lose all their loans as well, although i'm not sure how that could work as that would be Bolton not honouring further agreements that would have financial consequences for the parent clubs.

https://www.bwfc.co.uk/news/2018/september/a-note-from-the-chairman4/

We have a rivalry with Bolton but you've got to feel for their fans - imagine if we were going through this because of terrible owners!
 
Bolton chairmans statement reeks of 'everyones fault but mine' and tries to paint himself as the victim and the creditors unreasonable by glossing over the fact his creditors are only doing this as he hasn't honoured the original repayment terms.

Rumour going round they may lose all their loans as well, although i'm not sure how that could work as that would be Bolton not honouring further agreements that would have financial consequences for the parent clubs.

https://www.bwfc.co.uk/news/2018/september/a-note-from-the-chairman4/

We have a rivalry with Bolton but you've got to feel for their fans - imagine if we were going through this because of terrible owners!



This is exactly why I raised the issue of having the owners dabbling in dozens of offshore businesses that are closed down, with intermediary companies doing the donkey work. Releasing funds, maintaining cash flow if it goes wrong - Villa almost went to administration in the summer. It isn't really relevant how rich an owner is if they can't get at the money and use it.
 
Would that be the same Bill Kenyon who settled out of court when Stephen Gage found a six figure black hole in the accounts when he took over??


You need to be careful with the things you accuse people of on the inter web, people have ended up in a court for defamation of character !
 
According to BEN's Marc Iles, a few minutes ago, "I am hearing funds have now been moved and that the deadline is on course to be met"
 
Looks like the trotters have secured themselves a last second reprieve.

To be honest the efl need to take their share of responsibility for the ongoing issues at that club. Staggering their chairman passed the fit and proper person test in the first place and his behaviour since would reaffirm that. Would appear the loan company called his bluff this time and forced him to pay up in full. Back in court next week to challenge a winding up petition for failing to pay heathcotes, past players still owed money and Pfa are also fighting him on that. It appears some get paid and some don't which is bizzare really. Also some suggestion despite the reprieve an insolvency event did occur under the elf rules, because a notice was issued, which should trigger the automatic points deduction. I've no doubt the efl will turn a blind eye to it though and fudge it once more.
 
Bolton will just keep lurching from criris to crisis with their money issues. The fact they spent money on signing players and not paying the bills on time shows that they've learned nothing and will keep trying to push their luck at every chance they get. It must be a case of when not if they end up in admin even if they have escaped again this time.

It's disgraceful way their owners have behaved, how can they be finding six figure transfer fees when some of employees have not been paid from last season.
 
You need to be careful with the things you accuse people of on the inter web, people have ended up in a court for defamation of character !

I haven't accused anybody of anything. I've merely stated historical fact and passed no judgement on what did or didn't happen at that time!!
 
[QUOTE="king_dezeeuw06, post: 1554873, member: 10671"

We have a rivalry with Bolton but you've got to feel for their fans - imagine if we were going through this because of terrible owners![/QUOTE]

Don't have any sympathy for Bolton fans kdz. They're a horrible set of barstewards and deserve everything what's coming to them.

If this was happening to us do you think they'd be sympathetic? Would they hell.
They took great pleasure laughing at us on the early 90s as we headed towards oblivion and they got back into the upper tiers of English football.
 
I haven't accused anybody of anything. I've merely stated historical fact and passed no judgement on what did or didn't happen at that time!!


Well I am a long standing fan from non league days & this is the first I have heard of this allegation or fact as you call it !