Bit of Brexit info required. | Page 131 | Vital Football

Bit of Brexit info required.

Lienking said:
Firstly you are playing with numbers. 40 million didn't vote to leave? So in 1975 30 million didn't vote to stay in, so why did we stay in?

The house doesn't HAVE to do anything. The legislation for leaving has been passed. According to article 50, we AUTOMATICALLY get kicked out on the 29th March. TM can get an extension to article 50. I don't want her to, but this is the most likely option (in my opinion) as I believe the EU will do anything to keep us in. Are the 27 likely to disagree on this? She could argue she is deferring it to put it back to the people.

We CAN cancel the implementation of Article 50. The court did say (I think) that this has to be done in good faith. This implies that you shouldn't cancel it then resubmit it. It also means that TM will be doing exactly the opposite of what the referendum requested, without any official public backing.
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So you feel as long as the 17.4 are satisfied, it doesn’t matter about the rest of us?

The Withdrawal Act specifically states the steps our Parliament has to take to implement the withdrawal. That process, whatever it is has to then be put in front of the house.
Then that has to be approved by Parliament. Until that happens, we cannot legally move forward.
Parliament has to make a decision one way or another.

By the way, I’ve noticed this for a few days now. I think you may have a problem with the Caps Lock on your keyboard.
 
Article 50 says we get kicked out on the 29th March. Parliament SHOULD (just checking my caps lock works) pass some legislation, but the EU won't ring us up on the 29th and ask if it's ok for them to kick us out. They will just kick us out.
 
Feco said:
So you feel as long as the 17.4 are satisfied, it doesn’t matter about the rest of us?
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So if Remain had won by 52% to 48% you would have been happy for us to 48% leave? in the 2015 election SNP got 56 MPs. The Liberals got 8 MPs. UKIP got more votes than both parties put together, and only got 1 MP. Like it or not, we have election rules. Under the rules of the 2016 referendum leave won. The government passed this decision to the people, and BOTH parties said they would honour that decision.
 
Lienking said:
Article 50 says we get kicked out on the 29th March. Parliament SHOULD (just checking my caps lock works) pass some legislation, but the EU won't ring us up on the 29th and ask if it's ok for them to kick us out. They will just kick us out.
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Parliament has to pass legislation, as dictated by the Withdrawal Act.
Doesn’t matter what that is, something has to be passed. If the Government cannot get that consensus, then Parliament has the right to take the process over.
This is a sovereign matter ( remember those, you were so keen to take back control of) it has to be dealt with here.
Right now....nothing is off the table.
 
Lienking said:
So if Remain had won by 52% to 48% you would have been happy for us to 48% leave? in the 2015 election SNP got 56 MPs. The Liberals got 8 MPs. UKIP got more votes than both parties put together, and only got 1 MP. Like it or not, we have election rules. Under the rules of the 2016 referendum leave won. The government passed this decision to the people, and BOTH parties said they would honour that decision.
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So your answer is no. As long as the 17.4m are appeased that’s all that matters.

Irrespective of the result, engagement of all the population was required moving forward. Otherwise this issue was never going away.

I think that time has passed, this will carry on for years in the UK. Just remember time is on the ‘Remain’ side, provided the damage is limited now
 
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Lienking said:
No kind of. One vote clear is a win. When people say 52 to 48 they try to make it sound like the win was 4 votes. It was actually 1,269,000 which doesn't exactly seem close. In England it was nearly 2 million .
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So you do know what an election win is........

Scotland was 62% remain, Northern Ireland was 56% remain.

Do you think it’s time to cast off the English shackles and let them become seperate entities?
 
Feco said:
So your answer is no. As long as the 17.4m are appeased that’s all that matters.

Irrespective of the result, engagement of all the population was required moving forward. Otherwise this issue was never going away.

I think that time has passed, this will carry on for years in the UK. Just remember time is on the ‘Remain’ side, provided the damage is limited now
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I'm quite happy to hear what you would do if you think you know how to keep both sides happy! I always thought the general principle of a vote was that the winning side got what they wanted. A prospective MP with one extra vote gets to be the MP, a government with one more MP than 50% gets to govern etc.

Maybe we should have a second referendum, then leave anyhow, as if the first referendum didn't count for anything why should the second?
 
Feco said:
So you do know what an election win is........

Scotland was 62% remain, Northern Ireland was 56% remain.

Do you think it’s time to cast off the English shackles and let them become seperate entities?
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More than happy to let them do what they want. Think it's called democracy.
 
Lienking said:
No kind of. One vote clear is a win. When people say 52 to 48 they try to make it sound like the win was 4 votes. It was actually 1,269,000 which doesn't exactly seem close. In England it was nearly 2 million .
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You completely missed the point despite me highlighting it for you. It was not won under the rules of the election. The rules were broken. I know you don't want to believe that it made any difference but them's the FACTS.
 
in_the_top_one said:
You completely missed the point despite me highlighting it for you. It was not won under the rules of the election. The rules were broken. I know you don't want to believe that it made any difference but them's the FACTS.
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Just like 436,000 people were allowed to register after the deadline, 90% of whom were under 55 ! Only 50,000 had had problems before the deadline, and they had already had months to register.

The Labour party spent money on getting their people to register because a high proportion would vote remain. The Conservatives spent nothing, because they didn't want any of their leave voters to register!

The effect of Aaron Banks is estimated to be about 40,000 voters if any , far less than the above figure. Had Leave lost, presumably there would have been a court challenge over this.
 
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in_the_top_one said:
You completely missed the point despite me highlighting it for you. It was not won under the rules of the election. The rules were broken. I know you don't want to believe that it made any difference but them's the FACTS.
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If you don't know the difference between opinion and fact, there's no hope, though I guess the sarcasm emoji should probably be there.
 
I think your Mrs May is doing a pretty good job considering the circumstances and the fact that the EU apparently will not give an inch. It does seem obvious that the transition will be a bit of a mess regardless of the circumstances and it made me laugh when the suggestion was made somewhere down the track that Scotland and N. Ireland might cut themselves loose. Can't see that happening although it might resolve the border problem. For the UK that is.
Wonder if Wales might follow.
So far it's been great reading all your opinions and it's interesting to note that while none of you have changed your viewpoints there's still a way to go. I had no idea that the thread would go this far but the business is far from over and I'm looking forward to reading even more of your views.
From my own point of view as an old fogie I've always supported the "Leave" camp knowing that the UK will eventually come good but as my wife will rush to confirm, I have been known to be wrong.

It's been an excellent debate so far and I look forward to more of the same.

:cheers:
 
Feco said:
Parliament has to pass legislation, as dictated by the Withdrawal Act.
Doesn’t matter what that is, something has to be passed. If the Government cannot get that consensus, then Parliament has the right to take the process over.
This is a sovereign matter ( remember those, you were so keen to take back control of) it has to be dealt with here.
Right now....nothing is off the table.
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I agree nothing is off the table at our end. We will still get kicked out the EU on the 29th March unless Government/ Parliament goes back to them and rescinds/extends Article 50 though. I guess now anything that gets through other than no deal will have to be done with Labours help.
 
in_the_top_one said:
So... you do have different views? Clearly what is acceptable to JRM is unacceptable to more moderate leavers who don't want to destroy the economy and vice versa.

Some want immigration to end or be drastically reduced. It won't be, because the government is dependent on the cash and skills boost they bring. Even so, it could have been reduced greatly from both the EU and the RoW while remaining in the EU. The government chose not to enforce those rules.

Some want a nebulous concept of sovereignty. This won't happen either because every single deal involves pooling sovereignty and oversight by an independent body.


Unfortunately, the compromise agreement from Chequers that took two years to put together and two days to fall apart might possibly have worked but the amendments that you are trumpeting have made it unworkable, so it will fail.
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Part 1...
 
in_the_top_one said:
BTW, it will fail for a number of reasons. The EU won't collect tax for us at all of their borders. The EU won't accept a deal with no backstop on Northern Ireland.
They have destroyed the prospect of the compromise deal, presumably in the hope of forcing a hard brexit which will be catastrophic for jobs, the economy and from that the welfare state, the NHS, the armed forces, fixing the potholes, and so on. Instead - because the idea of no deal is literally so preposterous that no goverment could accept it, even a crazy, railroaded one one like this - it increases the likelihood of no brexit at all.
So that's a silver lining at least, eh?
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... And Part 2 of my posts back in July.
I'm not Junker, I'm Nostrodamus.
Why did we bother waiting for the deal to be negotiated and OKed by the member states. I told her she wouldn't be able to get it through back then!
 
Feco said:
Parliament has to pass legislation, as dictated by the Withdrawal Act.
Doesn’t matter what that is, something has to be passed. If the Government cannot get that consensus, then Parliament has the right to take the process over.
This is a sovereign matter ( remember those, you were so keen to take back control of) it has to be dealt with here.
Right now....nothing is off the table.
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Feco. Give up. You can lead a Lienking to water but you can't force it to drink

After +130 pages it is apparent that Lienking has no interest in details just the bog standard "17,4m blah will of the people blah blah" "It's easy we'll just use WTO rules" "We'll manufacture everything here, we don't need to import" "We can export goods to outer Mongolia, no problem" "We can make deals immediately on 30th March 2019"
 
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Bremen Tree said:
Feco. Give up. You can lead a Lienking to water but you can't force it to drink

After +130 pages it is apparent that Lienking has no interest in details just the bog standard "17,4m blah will of the people blah blah" "It's easy we'll just use WTO rules" "We'll manufacture everything here, we don't need to import" "We can export goods to outer Mongolia, no problem" "We can make deals immediately on 30th March 2019"
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Have you got any quotes where I've said we don't need to import? We have had nearly three years to sort trade deals and prepare. TM has done nothing. Some of us have more faith that the UK will do what it has done throughout history, and react to circumstances.
 
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