Ashes Thread | Page 5 | Vital Football

Ashes Thread

That was a tough task to expect England to bat out the 5th day on a Bunsen against that Aussie attack, it was never going to happen.
Anderson passing himself off as fit to play and obviously wasn't and Ali performng like a part time village spinner was why we lost this match.
There are no better batsmen playing County cricket than those that played today so don't expect many if any changes to the batting.
Archer, Sam Curran and Leach for Jimmy, Ali and possibly Denly will most likely be the changes foLords
 
Roots captaincy not inspirational and middle order batsmen not delivering added to an already fragile batting line up doesn't bode well for the rest of the series-at the start of the Ashes Sir Geoffrey didn't give us more than a 50/50 chance of success.
 
Roots captaincy not inspirational and middle order batsmen not delivering added to an already fragile batting line up doesn't bode well for the rest of the series-at the start of the Ashes Sir Geoffrey didn't give us more than a 50/50 chance of success.

Yes but it’s easy to blame the captain when the team doesn’t perform. Would anyone say Paine is an inspirational captain?
I wouldn’t at all, I would say he has a team containing the worlds best batsman and a well balanced strong bowling attack even with their best 2 bowlers resting up for Lords. Apart from Smith their top 6 is as fragile as ours but with no Anderson and a buffet spinner they battered us.
Lords could be different, Smith could become Leach’s bunny, Archer could blow away the rest and Roy could smash a quick fire double century along with a century from Root We could win by an innings and Joe Root lauded as an inspirational captain as we break our Ashes Lords hoodoo.
It’s been a long day!
 
I don't want Jennings back, awful player.
Atherton is just as bad got very lightly too. Old boys network
Cycling got it right banned Armstrong for good and took his titles off him too.

Are you seriously making an analogy between Lance Armstrong's systematic cheating over a long period of time in a sport entirely related to endurance and the brainless Sandpaper gate incident? Youd really ban them for good?

wouldn't a more sensible analogy be with say Harry Anderson and Bruno Andrade diving to win a penalty?
 
Once again fans show just how fickle they are. Whether it's decrying a 0-2 loss in a friendly at Scunthorpe to eulogising an actual league win a week later, the same is true of this thread.

Root, like David Gower (a long time) before him, may not be the best captain and he might be too laconic but this poor defeat was due to an inability to remove Smith in either innings. That's it.

Had Anderson been fit, as I mentioned before, he may have bowled out Siddle and Lyon quite quickly and the result could have been far different. But it wasn't.

Instead, Root is a poor captain.

In the incredibly famous Headingley win of 1981 was that down to Mike Brearley's captaincy? Actually, no. It was individual heroics, and the intervention of Bob Taylor who had to convince Brearley to let Willis change ends in Australia's 2nd innnings.

I was a big fan of Brearley. He wasn't a good batter but his other qualities more than made up for it. Which reminds me:

Lord's Cricket Ground. Thursday, 11am
Phone rings
"Hello, Lord's"
"Can I speak to Mike Brearley please?"
"I'm sorry, he's just gone out to bat"
"I'll hold"
 
Not fickle at all - held these views for some time and some of them shared by Sir Geoffrey and Michael Vaughan - two much vaunted Tykes who know a bit about cricket - the sides not good enough and 5 day test cricket has not had the investment that shorter versions of the game have had and we are paying the price for that now.
 
The top-order batting has been weak for years (especially since cook retired). Our middle order used to help compensate for that - Ali, especially in many games saving us. However, it seems that's now pretty rubbish as well. If you can't bat anywhere in the order, you are going to lose.
 
Once again fans show just how fickle they are. Whether it's decrying a 0-2 loss in a friendly at Scunthorpe to eulogising an actual league win a week later, the same is true of this thread.

Root, like David Gower (a long time) before him, may not be the best captain and he might be too laconic but this poor defeat was due to an inability to remove Smith in either innings. That's it.

Had Anderson been fit, as I mentioned before, he may have bowled out Siddle and Lyon quite quickly and the result could have been far different. But it wasn't.

Instead, Root is a poor captain.

In the incredibly famous Headingley win of 1981 was that down to Mike Brearley's captaincy? Actually, no. It was individual heroics, and the intervention of Bob Taylor who had to convince Brearley to let Willis change ends in Australia's 2nd innnings.

I was a big fan of Brearley. He wasn't a good batter but his other qualities more than made up for it. Which reminds me:

Lord's Cricket Ground. Thursday, 11am
Phone rings
"Hello, Lord's"
"Can I speak to Mike Brearley please?"
"I'm sorry, he's just gone out to bat"
"I'll hold"
There's a lot I agree with here. Regardless of the weakness in our batting line up, chasing or trying to save a test on the 5th day with a deficit in excess of 200 is always going to very difficult for any team. This test was lost with the bowling in Australia's 2nd innings. This doesn't mean the batsmen couldn't have done better but I don't think it's fair to judge based on that 5th day.
 
It is a lot more difficult when you throw your wicket away. Our side has enough technical weakness (with bat and ball), we don't need to help them with mindless decisions.
 
Just forbidding Bairstow to have anything to do with reviews, either for himself or for what he thinks when he's 'keeping, might keep a little powder dry for when it's really needed. I can't remember when he got one right.
 
Once again fans show just how fickle they are. Whether it's decrying a 0-2 loss in a friendly at Scunthorpe to eulogising an actual league win a week later, the same is true of this thread.

Root, like David Gower (a long time) before him, may not be the best captain and he might be too laconic but this poor defeat was due to an inability to remove Smith in either innings. That's it.

Had Anderson been fit, as I mentioned before, he may have bowled out Siddle and Lyon quite quickly and the result could have been far different. But it wasn't.

Instead, Root is a poor captain.

In the incredibly famous Headingley win of 1981 was that down to Mike Brearley's captaincy? Actually, no. It was individual heroics, and the intervention of Bob Taylor who had to convince Brearley to let Willis change ends in Australia's 2nd innnings.

I was a big fan of Brearley. He wasn't a good batter but his other qualities more than made up for it. Which reminds me:

Lord's Cricket Ground. Thursday, 11am
Phone rings
"Hello, Lord's"
"Can I speak to Mike Brearley please?"
"I'm sorry, he's just gone out to bat"
"I'll hold"

I don't think it is a case of being fickle. I think it is a dose of reality that they don't like. There are many comparisons to be made from the new cricket fans for England and also new City fans for us.

For me, I expect us to lose every game we play. It's just too many years of following both teams...when seemingly in a place where it is more improbable to lose, then we defy the odds and actually manage it - through some spectacular way.

Yet, we we do win I am elated as anyone. Punch drunk and cheering from the rafters.

If I may look at the two captains and assess their decisions.

Paine - Made the right call to bat. Looked like a disaster at 122-8....but then Siddle, whom has previous for keeping us at bay, provided much needed support for Smith...for whom is up there with Kholi for the best player in the world..at present. They got 130 runs too many, and we scored 130 runs too few.

Paine made the right choices over his bowlers too, when to bowl them, chopping and changing and bowling them in short spells. His fielding positions were attacking and more importantly he always looked in control.

Paine also had the best resources to hand. He had Smith next to him, a bit like Kholi has Dhoni in One Day Matches. He has Langer (along with Warne, the best captain Australia never had), Ponting and Tugga in the background. Hell, Border is still a selector too, I think. That's like fighting people on horseback with tanks.

Root - Along with selectors, management and Jimmy, allowed the latter to play when not match fit. Yes he may have been fit...but not match fit. Two different things.

Root - used his bowlers badly in the second innings and bowled Ali and Denly for far too long. He didn't bowl himself nor Woakes until it was far too late.

Root does not have the tactical backup that the Aussies have....nor does he have Hazelwood and Starc waiting in the wings. He doesn't even have a spinner.

Root was forced to place a poor field, as he could not trust his spinner and part time spinner not to leak runs.

Are Aussie in a better place than us? Yes. Are they a better team than us? Yes. Will we have to play out of our socks to beat them? Definitely.

Now on to 1981. We won that series down to the change in captaincy.

Yes MB was not a good batsman, he wasn't good enough to play for England. His leadership was brilliant. He allowed Beefy to be the free spirit he needed to be, unburdened by captaincy. Wound him up then let him go. Bowling Willis up the hill at Headingley was designed to get him angry. At 52-1 Willis said to his captain "I'm too old to be bowling up hill into the wind." Willis then was told he could run down the hill, not to worry about no balls "I'll worry about those," said MB and to bowl "fast and straight."

Willis had the confidence of his captain....and from a psychological point of view, which of course MB is exemplary, he had got his fast bowler fired up and protected by taking away his biggest fear of bowling no balls. Superb leadership.

MB actually made the team better, even though he didn't actually individually play the ball well.

It is a bit like what DC trots out. Win as a team, lose as a team. Victims or winners. We haven't had the best squads in the leagues we have been successful in. We haven't had the most money....but we have had the leadership and tactics to give us those fine margins. That is what MB gave us in 1981. What he gave us was gold. As his batting certainly wasn't.

Similar to MV when he took over in 2003. Sadly Root and Bayliss are not the pairing to take us forward. Root needs someone like Jason Gillespie. Now that would be an appointment. He worked wonders at Yorkshire and would do brilliantly for England.

Will we lose 0-5. It is a good possibility. Can we turn it around? Well, the backroom trick cyclist is going to have to work overtime....Never say never. Sadly we don't have a MB figure to assist us, like he was able to in 1981.

Australia have plenty of those figures.
 
Ah yes the dream team of Langer, Ponting, Waugh and Paine.
So good the Aussies are currently ranked the 5th best test team and the 4th best ODI and T20 team. Take Smith out of that team and their batting is piss poor. But still let’s not let the facts get in the way of opinionated drivel eh?
 
Ah yes the dream team of Langer, Ponting, Waugh and Paine.
So good the Aussies are currently ranked the 5th best test team and the 4th best ODI and T20 team. Take Smith out of that team and their batting is piss poor. But still let’s not let the facts get in the way of opinionated drivel eh?

Except that he isn't out of that team. Not any more.

The main reason for that is the last year where neither Smith, Warner and to a far lesser extent Bancroft were suspended.

Take Root, Stokes and Anderson out of our team and we would be an even worse place than the Aussies were, when they were missing Smith and Warner.

Take Kholi out of India and they would struggle.

Take Amla and De Kock out of the Proteas and they would be even worse.

Take Williamson out of NZ and they would struggle.

Do I REALLY need to go on?

If you have Langer, Tugga and Ponting in your corner, with Smith and Warner to offer legal assistance on the pitch, a world class spinner in Nathan 'Gary' Lyon then I know what corner I would rather be in.

Let's not forget that Aussie have now won 7 out of the last 8 tests played, against us, in a run going back to 2015. That's hardly opinionated drivel. It's a cold hard fact.
 
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Yes MB was not a good batsman, he wasn't good enough to play for England. His leadership was brilliant. He allowed Beefy to be the free spirit he needed to be, unburdened by captaincy. Wound him up then let him go. Bowling Willis up the hill at Headingley was designed to get him angry. At 52-1 Willis said to his captain "I'm too old to be bowling up hill into the wind." Willis then was told he could run down the hill, not to worry about no balls "I'll worry about those," said MB and to bowl "fast and straight."

Obviously we agree about Brearley.

Just to put that Headingley game right with what actually happended, though Jeff, these are Brearley's own words (and look at the parallel in the first paragraph :))

"Bob Willis was initially not picked for the match. The selectors were afraid he was not fit and thought this was confirmed by his not playing in the match for Warwickshire the weekend before.

Bob had preferred to bowl up the slope, partly to prevent himself over-stepping as a result of running too fast downhill.

It was only on the last day, when we had (over a drink the night before) encouraged him to forget the no-balls, and bowl as fast and straight as he could, and when he had bowled a few overs uphill, that he asked to change ends. I took some convincing. Bob Taylor, I think, was the one who said: "Give him his head, switch him round."
 
Except that he isn't out of that team. Not any more.

The main reason for that is the last year where neither Smith, Warner and to a far lesser extent Bancroft were suspended.

Take Root, Stokes and Anderson out of our team and we would be an even worse place than the Aussies were, when they were missing Smith and Warner.

Take Kholi out of India and they would struggle.

Take Amla and De Kock out of the Proteas and they would be even worse.

Take Williamson out of NZ and they would struggle.

Do I REALLY need to go on?

If you have Langer, Tugga and Ponting in your corner, with Smith and Warner to offer legal assistance on the pitch, a world class spinner in Nathan 'Gary' Lyon then I know what corner I would rather be in.

Let's not forget that Aussie have now won 7 out of the last 8 tests played, against us, in a run going back to 2015. That's hardly opinionated drivel. It's a cold hard fact.

So your point that Paine , Langer, Ponting and Waugh are streets ahead of Root, Bayliss etc is blown to pieces when you say the Aussies are the best team NOW that Smith and Warner are back in the team. My point is that without Smith the Aussies batting line up is mediocre at best. Darren Lehman was the team coach when they hammered us in Oz last time out and he was also in charge when we hammered them at home in 2015.
 
So your point that Paine , Langer, Ponting and Waugh are streets ahead of Root, Bayliss etc is blown to pieces when you say the Aussies are the best team NOW that Smith and Warner are back in the team. My point is that without Smith the Aussies batting line up is mediocre at best. Darren Lehman was the team coach when they hammered us in Oz last time out and he was also in charge when we hammered them at home in 2015.

We didn't hammer them at home in 2015. The only match we really hammered them in was Trent Bridge. It was 3-2. They massacred us at Lords and The Oval. It was brutal.

My point is that if you take away a team's best player, then you stand a better chance of beating them. Thing is this Aussie team are now more of a team. Wade and Head played really well. Wade cruised to a century on Sunday, and it was the easiest and one of the best I have seen, in terms of effortlessly done, since I saw Mark Waugh get one at Lords in 2001.

Darren Lehman is not up there with Langer. Langer is a different class to Lehman.

The Aussies maybe mediocre at best, but ours are worse. We have no openers. No No.4. We have a No. 6 in Stokes, and we don't have a spinner. For God's sake Ireland's team of 75mph buffet bowling trampled all over us the week before the Ashes.

As much as I hate to say it Aussies are by far the better test team than us....as it stands, currently.

Next match is at Lords...for which we have only won twice there, against Australia, since 1934.

It's time we prayed for rain. It maybe our only hope.
 
Actually Jeff back in 2015 when we beat them 3-2 they did hammer us twice but we hammered them in the other 3 by an innings, by 169 runs and by 8 wkts. The tone of the series was rash batting and top quality seam and swing bowling. Sounds familiar doesn’t it. Back in 2005 they hammered us in the 1st test but we know the rest.
We may well lose the series, teams that have won the last 2 world cups have unexpectantly lost the next test series they have played but the over reaction of doom and gloom and the thought we are playing against a team of world beaters is really unbelievable Jeff
 
Just to bring the mood back down to earth...

England 137/5

Can we have more rain please?
 
we need to keep fighting. the aussies were 122-8 in the first test.

no way to predict how good or bad a first score is until the opposition have had a bat.