Are Villa In A Slump Or Are Expectations Now Wildly Unachievable | Page 3 | Vital Football

Are Villa In A Slump Or Are Expectations Now Wildly Unachievable

Divine_islet said:
I'd agree with that. Or else Trez and the others on the bench would have improved as well. And if a player plays poorly who do you blame then, the player or the manager?
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We have a good few players of premiership quality. Top class this season,, Martinez, Cash, Targett , Mings,Konza,Grealish and Ollie. Maybe, Trez,Anwar, Traore,Luis and Mcginn. So arguably seven players are good enough to take us forward. Smith has done well,for me. A promotion against the odds and survival season. We look mid table and l,for one,am mightily ok with that.We are building and growing and Smith merits the opportunity to continue developing the squad.Ron Saunders didnt transform us overnight , glad we stuck with him.
 
Divine_islet said:
I'd agree with that. Or else Trez and the others on the bench would have improved as well. And if a player plays poorly who do you blame then, the player or the manager?
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You won’t give an ounce of credit to the bloke, that’s obvious. So because Trezeguet in your opinion hasn’t improved (I actually think he has improved since joining us, despite limitations) that completely negates the hint of a possibility that Jack‘s development has anything to do with the head coach and his team? We could name others...Konsa, Targett, better players now than when they arrived....but nothing to do with the coaching? But players not improving...that is the fault of the coaching team?! You can’t have it both ways.
 
Langoe66 said:
You won’t give an ounce of credit to the bloke, that’s obvious. So because Trezeguet in your opinion hasn’t improved (I actually think he has improved since joining us, despite limitations) that completely negates the hint of a possibility that Jack‘s development has anything to do with the head coach and his team? We could name others...Konsa, Targett, better players now than when they arrived....but nothing to do with the coaching? But players not improving...that is the fault of the coaching team?! You can’t have it both ways.
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I think it's a completely illogical argument.
 
JP Healy said:
We have a good few players of premiership quality. Top class this season,, Martinez, Cash, Targett , Mings,Konza,Grealish and Ollie. Maybe, Trez,Anwar, Traore,Luis and Mcginn. So arguably seven players are good enough to take us forward. Smith has done well,for me. A promotion against the odds and survival season. We look mid table and l,for one,am mightily ok with that.We are building and growing and Smith merits the opportunity to continue developing the squad.Ron Saunders didnt transform us overnight , glad we stuck with him.
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What you are probably misunderstanding about what I want is that I do not expect a radical overnight transformation in the way we play. All I want is for us to look like we clearly play in a way which shows that we are not dependent on Jack for wins. I was not expecting a win vs Leicester at all with Jack out, however, what I was hoping not to see was a huge difference between how we play with Jack vs without. It was complete disappointment for me to see that we are still the same one man team in terms of our attacking play.
 
Langoe66 said:
You won’t give an ounce of credit to the bloke, that’s obvious. So because Trezeguet in your opinion hasn’t improved (I actually think he has improved since joining us, despite limitations) that completely negates the hint of a possibility that Jack‘s development has anything to do with the head coach and his team? We could name others...Konsa, Targett, better players now than when they arrived....but nothing to do with the coaching? But players not improving...that is the fault of the coaching team?! You can’t have it both ways.
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Trez has improved. Now don't make me laugh ! Improved in what sense if I may ask, because I am sure we are thinking about two separate aspects. No, I am not basing my view on Smith on just ONE player, that would be ridiculous. I also do not mean to say that a manager does not have any influence in a player's development, he may or may not. Let's assume he has helped in Jack's development, then what about the other players, why are they not developing? Did he just choose Jack to offer development tips to? Seems unlikely, so if you are saying he is someone who improves players, why are the others so bad? How many bids did we see for our players if they are so improved? Any manager can take credit for improving a player of Jack's ability. Jack praised Bruce as well for helping him improve, and we all know how good Bruce is when it comes to improving players ! So who do you believe, Jack or Bruce's player development abilities?

Yes, he is not getting much credit from me for "improving" us a team. Like I said to the other poster in my response above, let me see us not look clueless when Jack is out injured or having a bad day, and then I will be more than happy to acknowledge he has done what is needed for us to truly progress in the right direction. For now, he is being made to look good by Jack and Emi. Without them this season, we'd be lower in the table. That is yet another sign that we are not a team yet. I am willing to give him as much time as is needed for him to change that image of us but sadly I don't see any signs of that happening. Unlike a few others, my criticism of him has nothing to do with our poor form of late which might mean we miss the chance to qualify for Europe, because we need to become an established premier league side first and that won't happen until a few more seasons before we start having European ambitions.
 
Divine_islet said:
For now, he is being made to look good by Jack and Emi. Without them this season, we'd be lower in the table.
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Sorry, but that is the most ludicrous argument against a manager I've ever seen....
Drogba and Cech made Mourinho look good. Cantona and Schmeichel made Ferguson look good. Bergkamp and Lehman/Seaman made Wenger look good. Come to think of it, Shaw and Rimmer made Saunders look good.
 
gmvillan said:
Sorry, but that is the most ludicrous argument against a manager I've ever seen....
Drogba and Cech made Mourinho look good. Cantona and Schmeichel made Ferguson look good. Bergkamp and Lehman/Seaman made Wenger look good. Come to think of it, Shaw and Rimmer made Saunders look good.
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They had other top players as well. How many do we have? Hope you realise your are comparing teams in their prime full of top players with our current team that has got just 2 top players in Emi and Jack, and have achieved nothing close to what those teams achieved ! Try making a fair comparison next time.
 
Divine_islet said:
They had other top players as well. How many do we have? Hope you realise your are comparing teams in their prime full of top players with our current team that has got just 2 top players in Emi and Jack, and have achieved nothing close to what those teams achieved ! Try making a fair comparison next time.
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Take those two players out of any of those teams and replace them with bang-average players and they would not have achieved anything close to what they did. A simple example would be when we beat Manure in 1994 they had Sealey in goal as Schmeichel was injured. I bet any ManUre fan that you care to ask would tell you that they wouldn't have conceded three goals with Schmeichel in the team that day.
And as you are suggesting the rest of our team is bang average (at best it seems) then the comparison is perfectly valid. I never said we are as good as those teams, merely that to suggest we are solely reliant on two players is absolutely ludicrous and a complete disservice to the many good and improving players at Villa currently.
 
Divine_islet said:
What you are probably misunderstanding about what I want is that I do not expect a radical overnight transformation in the way we play. All I want is for us to look like we clearly play in a way which shows that we are not dependent on Jack for wins. I was not expecting a win vs Leicester at all with Jack out, however, what I was hoping not to see was a huge difference between how we play with Jack vs without. It was complete disappointment for me to see that we are still the same one man team in terms of our attacking play.
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Liverpool will still win their league even with their best player out,one Virgil Van Dyke. Oops.
 
gmvillan said:
Take those two players out of any of those teams and replace them with bang-average players and they would not have achieved anything close to what they did. A simple example would be when we beat Manure in 1994 they had Sealey in goal as Schmeichel was injured. I bet any ManUre fan that you care to ask would tell you that they wouldn't have conceded three goals with Schmeichel in the team that day.
And as you are suggesting the rest of our team is bang average (at best it seems) then the comparison is perfectly valid. I never said we are as good as those teams, merely that to suggest we are solely reliant on two players is absolutely ludicrous and a complete disservice to the many good and improving players at Villa currently.
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Your argument is based on an assumption considering a hypothetical situation whereas I am using a factual situation to make mine. Those teams had some fantastic players and some good players at least and it wasn't like they had only those two players you named and the rest were utter crap, was it? So its absurd to compare those top teams given the players they had with our current team.
 
Divine_islet said:
Your argument is based on an assumption considering a hypothetical situation whereas I am using a factual situation to make mine. Those teams had some fantastic players and some good players at least and it wasn't like they had only those two players you named and the rest were utter crap, was it? So its absurd to compare those top teams given the players they had with our current team.
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OK, you're right. Our team is shit except Emi and Jack. And Smith is shit. There you go....
 
Divine_islet said:
How many bids did we see for our players if they are so improved?

Haven’t a clue and neither have any of us. Did anyone place a bid for Jack last summer? If not, does that mean he’s not improved either? Either way, you seem very dismissive of some of our other players.Has Esri Konsa not impressed you considering he came from Charlton and was really an unknown 3 years ago? You think he’s playing at the same level now as he was at Charlton presumably? No improvement in his game that might make him a target for other clubs?

I am willing to give him as much time as is needed for him to change that image of us.
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You don’t really sound like you’re willing to give him any time tbh! Didn’t you want him sacked when we started to struggle last year? Why would you be willing to give him as much time as he wants when you’ve clearly said you give him no credit whatsoever for promotion and where we currently are in the Prem? In your book, he’s been here 30 months and he’s achieved nothing because promotion and current league position is down to Jack and Martinez! If this is you wanting to give a manager time, heaven help the poor sod in the future, you want to get rid of!
 
Smith and his team are doing fine, to my mind we're above expectations given the quality of the squad we actually have. At this stage there's not a lot to debate when it comes to the manager IMO.
 
Langoe66 said:
You don’t really sound like you’re willing to give him any time tbh! Didn’t you want him sacked when we started to struggle last year? Why would you be willing to give him as much time as he wants when you’ve clearly said you give him no credit whatsoever for promotion and where we currently are in the Prem? In your book, he’s been here 30 months and he’s achieved nothing because promotion and current league position is down to Jack and Martinez! If this is you wanting to give a manager time, heaven help the poor sod in the future, you want to get rid of!
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For as long as he is here he has a chance, unless our performances reach Bruce level crap !
 
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