Anyone. But. Liverpool.... | Page 58 | Vital Football

Anyone. But. Liverpool....

chandos9 said:
I am not on the wind up. I am genuinely surprised and concerned at the insistence on saying Liverpool fans caused the deaths at the Hillsborough when it has been thoroughly investigated that however badly they behaved either then, or previously- and I am as sore at Forest's exclusion from Europe due to Heysel as anyone else- that this was not the cause of the Hillsborough deaths. Mao said there was footage of them storming the gates- there is not. You said that they turned up "late". You have pointed out that the right time must take account of there being lots trying to get in. So since you assert, against the evidence, that they were late, what time was late? If you don't want to answer that question, you may need to re- evaluate whether it is fair to say their behaviour played a part. That is all I am pointing out.
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They did, but so did we. Football fans of all clubs have blood on their hands for that day.
 
chandos9 said:
I am not on the wind up. I am genuinely surprised and concerned at the insistence on saying Liverpool fans caused the deaths at the Hillsborough when it has been thoroughly investigated that however badly they behaved either then, or previously- and I am as sore at Forest's exclusion from Europe due to Heysel as anyone else- that this was not the cause of the Hillsborough deaths. Mao said there was footage of them storming the gates- there is not. You said that they turned up "late". You have pointed out that the right time must take account of there being lots trying to get in. So since you assert, against the evidence, that they were late, what time was late? If you don't want to answer that question, you may need to re- evaluate whether it is fair to say their behaviour played a part. That is all I am pointing out.
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Against what evidence? The inquiry that ignored plenty of evidence and was fuelled in part by the need to ‘give justice’ to the families. Again you are talking bollocks and as Mapp says, must be on the wind up.

I have never said the Liverpool fans were solely to blame but I have and will always maintain based on what I have seen, read and heard, that the Liverpool fans were partly culpable.

The fact that you don’t think that suggests to me that you may think you ‘know’ what happened but you certainly don’t understand it.
 
Basha73 said:
Against what evidence? The inquiry that ignored plenty of evidence and was fuelled in part by the need to ‘give justice’ to the families. Again you are talking bollocks and as Mapp says, must be on the wind up.

I have never said the Liverpool fans were solely to blame but I have and will always maintain based on what I have seen, read and heard, that the Liverpool fans were partly culpable.

The fact that you don’t think that suggests to me that you may think you ‘know’ what happened but you certainly don’t understand it.[/QUOTE
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But "maintain" based on what? What evidence was ignored? You are asserting that Liverpool fans arrived late, but will not even say what time was too late to arrive at that game?
 


20 minutes before kick off, pens were half full on either side but the central pen was already busy, no way they all had tickets
 
chandos9 said:
But "maintain" based on what? What evidence was ignored? You are asserting that Liverpool fans arrived late, but will not even say what time was too late to arrive at that game?
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Put it this way. It all kicked off at 3.06pm, and there were still thousands outside. I’d say they were pretty late. How many thousands of Forest fans were still outside the ground?
 
Mappred said:
Put it this way. It all kicked off at 3.06pm, and there were still thousands outside. I’d say they were pretty late. How many thousands of Forest fans were still outside the ground?
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I have given up now. His response will just be ‘but the inquiry proved...’ because obviously they would never fudge such a politically sensitive issue.
 
Mappred said:
Put it this way. It all kicked off at 3.06pm, and there were still thousands outside. I’d say they were pretty late. How many thousands of Forest fans were still outside the ground?
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Mappred said:
Put it this way. It all kicked off at 3.06pm, and there were still thousands outside. I’d say they were pretty late. How many thousands of Forest fans were still outside the ground?
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3:06 was the time that the game was stopped because it was clear that hundreds were being crushed. The gate was opened on the orders of the Match Commander to let people in at 2:51 because the crowd outside had, for a very long time, been more than dozens deep at each turnstile. There were probably very few Forest fans outside at that time, because, fortunately, Forest were given the part of the stadium that had better admission arrangements. That is my point. The admission arrangements were inadequate, the police did not manage the crowd well outside, then opened the gate to relieve that pressure. Those are facts. It is a measure of the persistence of the police discrediting of Liverpool that people still do not recognise this. That is particularly unfortunate given that there is so much for which to dislike Liverpool FC and their fans.
 
chandos9 said:
3:06 was the time that the game was stopped because it was clear that hundreds were being crushed. The gate was opened on the orders of the Match Commander to let people in at 2:51 because the crowd outside had, for a very long time, been more than dozens deep at each turnstile. There were probably very few Forest fans outside at that time, because, fortunately, Forest were given the part of the stadium that had better admission arrangements. That is my point. The admission arrangements were inadequate, the police did not manage the crowd well outside, then opened the gate to relieve that pressure. Those are facts. It is a measure of the persistence of the police discrediting of Liverpool that people still do not recognise this. That is particularly unfortunate given that there is so much for which to dislike Liverpool FC and their fans.
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You’re right. It wasn’t one single Liverpool fans fault. Please forgive me.
 
Basha73 said:
I have given up now. His response will just be ‘but the inquiry proved...’ because obviously they would never fudge such a politically sensitive issue.
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It is not "the inquiry proved". It is that some of this is objective evidence, i.e. the evidence of our own eyes. The build- up of the crowd outside and how long it lasted (as well as how people behaved in it) are visible on TV evidence. Unless you think that TV replays add nothing to the analysis of football matches on television, and do not help anyone see what happened, or whether anyone was offside, or whether there was a handball, then you ought to consider that. Unlike Heysel, where you can see loads of Liverpool fans charging the crowd and causing it, there is no video evidence of anyone outside or inside the stadium acting as a hooligan, and loads of video evidence of how the crowd built up because people were not let in properly. If you are not prepared to believe what your own eyes can see, or would see if you could be bothered to watch, then you really are not worth listening to.
 
chandos9 said:
It is not "the inquiry proved". It is that some of this is objective evidence, i.e. the evidence of our own eyes. The build- up of the crowd outside and how long it lasted (as well as how people behaved in it) are visible on TV evidence. Unless you think that TV replays add nothing to the analysis of football matches on television, and do not help anyone see what happened, or whether anyone was offside, or whether there was a handball, then you ought to consider that. Unlike Heysel, where you can see loads of Liverpool fans charging the crowd and causing it, there is no video evidence of anyone outside or inside the stadium acting as a hooligan, and loads of video evidence of how the crowd built up because people were not let in properly. If you are not prepared to believe what your own eyes can see, or would see if you could be bothered to watch, then you really are not worth listening to.
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Funny, I had decided that about you and your opinion about a dozen posts ago...
 
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