Anyone. But. Liverpool.... | Page 32 | Vital Football

Anyone. But. Liverpool....

Calvin Plummer said:
Whom...

Pebble thinks there's a refereeing conspiracy against us and that everyone cheats apart from us and that the fair play tables for the last decade are fake news.

Apparently the Anderlecht bung proves it somehow.
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OK, I'll bite.

All I really said was we've had a couple shocking decisions go against us this season - away to Leeds and WBA an opponent conned the ref in the last few minutes to get an illegal equaliser and rob us of two points.

CP's response was that Forest players cheat more than those of other teams, as shown by the fair play tables for the past decade.

While I'm shocked and disappointed that we've been bottom of this table so often (and again last season!), I maintain that in games I've seen we've done nothing as bad as what Roofe and Gayle did, certainly nothing that's affected the result of a game.
 
Fair play tables are based on awarding points for red or yellow cards. Roofe didn't get a card, and nor did Gayle. Someone said that Gayle's retrospective 2 match ban would cost WBA points in the FP table, but I doubt it.

So the table doesn't tell the whole story. Benalouane, Colback and Robinson picked up enough cards to send us to the bottom last season, but I still say we're far from the dirtiest side in the league. CP thinks otherwise. Why not just agree to differ?
 
The Anderlecht comment was about the Guardian mentioning Spurs beating Anderlecht in the 1984 UEFA Cup final. It annoyed me that they said there were rumours of bribery surrounding Anderlecht's path to the final - rather than saying they bribed the ref in order to beat Forest in the semi.

We shouldn't be complacent about match-fixing in football, given the amount of money the sport generates. But I don't think I've ever suggested that refs were bribed to stop us going up last season!
 
pebble said:
Fair play tables are based on awarding points for red or yellow cards. Roofe didn't get a card, and nor did Gayle. Someone said that Gayle's retrospective 2 match ban would cost WBA points in the FP table, but I doubt it.

So the table doesn't tell the whole story. Benalouane, Colback and Robinson picked up enough cards to send us to the bottom last season, but I still say we're far from the dirtiest side in the league. CP thinks otherwise. Why not just agree to differ?
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There are a couple of Pebble's in every forum: convinced that referees, the FA, the fates and furies themselves are aligned against their club.

All I did was to point out a metric over the last decade which showed we'd consistently been amongst the worst offenders at breaking the rules.

You instead chose to disregard the actual data and focus on a couple of incidents - whilst simultaneously also disregarding any specific examples of our own cheating on the grounds that either: it wasn't as bad a cheat or if it was we got caught and somehow that negated the cheating aspect.

There's nothing really to debate, numbers are numbers.

I'd also left it alone until you dredged it back up...
 
Calvin Plummer said:
There are a couple of Pebble's in every forum: convinced that referees, the FA, the fates and furies themselves are aligned against their club.

All I did was to point out a metric over the last decade which showed we'd consistently been amongst the worst offenders at breaking the rules.

You instead chose to disregard the actual data and focus on a couple of incidents - whilst simultaneously also disregarding any specific examples of our own cheating on the grounds that either: it wasn't as bad a cheat or if it was we got caught and somehow that negated the cheating aspect.

There's nothing really to debate, numbers are numbers.

I'd also left it alone until you dredged it back up...
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Depends if they are Gross numbers or Net numbers
 
Calvin Plummer said:
There are a couple of Pebble's in every forum: convinced that referees, the FA, the fates and furies themselves are aligned against their club.

All I did was to point out a metric over the last decade which showed we'd consistently been amongst the worst offenders at breaking the rules.

You instead chose to disregard the actual data and focus on a couple of incidents - whilst simultaneously also disregarding any specific examples of our own cheating on the grounds that either: it wasn't as bad a cheat or if it was we got caught and somehow that negated the cheating aspect.

There's nothing really to debate, numbers are numbers.

I'd also left it alone until you dredged it back up...
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We debated it all, but you never answered my points.

When I tried to mention systematic cheating by other teams you said you didn't look at other teams (though you regularly trawl other teams' forums!), so you could only comment on stuff like Grabban going down too easily (and then missing the penalty!)

You fall back on 'numbers are numbers', but I was trying to drag you into the real world beyond stats. I finally got you to say that you actually agreed with the fair play tables and thought Forest were the dirtiest side in the Championship. I wonder how many Forest fans agree with that.

For the record, I don't think everyone's against us, but I do think we got more than our fair share of bad decisions last season. That's all I ever said, but you will no doubt twist it to fit your argument as usual.
 
Here's an example of your style: you say I 'chose to disregard the actual data and focus on a couple of incidents'.

The word 'actual' is in the wrong place. I queried a table based on ref's subjective decisions about whether a foul is just a foul/a yellow/a red, and pointed to a couple of actual, verified examples of opponents cheating which cost us points. Do you have any examples of Forest players cheating which cost opponents points last season?
 
pebble said:
Here's an example of your style: you say I 'chose to disregard the actual data and focus on a couple of incidents'.

The word 'actual' is in the wrong place. I queried a table based on ref's subjective decisions about whether a foul is just a foul/a yellow/a red, and pointed to a couple of actual, verified examples of opponents cheating which cost us points. Do you have any examples of Forest players cheating which cost opponents points last season?
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Yes and I and multiple others gave you examples, all of which you chose to regard.

Also again with the qualifier...cheating is about intent, not outcome. Really unsure why you can't grasp this.
 
pebble said:
We debated it all, but you never answered my points.

When I tried to mention systematic cheating by other teams you said you didn't look at other teams (though you regularly trawl other teams' forums!), so you could only comment on stuff like Grabban going down too easily (and then missing the penalty!)

You fall back on 'numbers are numbers', but I was trying to drag you into the real world beyond stats. I finally got you to say that you actually agreed with the fair play tables and thought Forest were the dirtiest side in the Championship. I wonder how many Forest fans agree with that.

For the record, I don't think everyone's against us, but I do think we got more than our fair share of bad decisions last season. That's all I ever said, but you will no doubt twist it to fit your argument as usual.
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That's not all you've ever said lol

I'm interested in our behaviour because that's all we have control over. 7 year old justify their poor behaviour because others do it too. Well 7 year olds and you.

Numbers are the real world, when you look at data over a prolonged period it ignores bias, statistical oddities etc.

Ever considered that football fans might be prone to viewing things through a distorted lense?

You can continue to deny all you like, Trump does the same with climate change.
 
Also cheating comes in all shapes and sizes: time wasting, cynical fouls etc aren't done for comedy purposes. They're a clear tactical decision that has an influence on a match. It's not as clear cut as a dive or a handball but that doesn't lessen their impact or if they're cheating.

Given your inability to view the macro or long run I imagine this will just pass you by.
 
pebble said:
OK, I'll bite.

All I really said was we've had a couple shocking decisions go against us this season - away to Leeds and WBA an opponent conned the ref in the last few minutes to get an illegal equaliser and rob us of two points.

CP's response was that Forest players cheat more than those of other teams, as shown by the fair play tables for the past decade.

While I'm shocked and disappointed that we've been bottom of this table so often (and again last season!), I maintain that in games I've seen we've done nothing as bad as what Roofe and Gayle did, certainly nothing that's affected the result of a game.
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We rarely do anything even in open play to affect the result of a game.
 
Sorry Pebble but I’m with CP on this one.

If it was just one season then maybe you could argue it was anomalous. But it isn’t. It’s ten seasons or 460 games. That’s not a glitch or a conspiracy. That’s a trend.

And as CP says cheating is about intent not outcome. Just because a player has been caught it doesn’t change the fact that he has cheated.

Yes there have been examples of other clubs players blatantly cheating but so have ours at times. Perhaps not as successfully but...

I don’t remember us being a dirty shithouse of a team but I am struggling to remember when we weren’t a niggly team, it certainly goes back to Billy mk I at least.

The sad fact is that all clubs look for advantage and look to ‘cheat’ the rules. Just look at players moving forward at throw ins or free kicks.

We aren’t responsible for another’s clubs actions only our own but it’s very difficult to throw stones when we sit in that glass house.
 
Calvin Plummer said:
That's not all you've ever said lol

I'm interested in our behaviour because that's all we have control over. 7 year old justify their poor behaviour because others do it too. Well 7 year olds and you.

Numbers are the real world, when you look at data over a prolonged period it ignores bias, statistical oddities etc.

Ever considered that football fans might be prone to viewing things through a distorted lense?

You can continue to deny all you like, Trump does the same with climate change.
Click to expand...
Numbers are real world but you are completely incapable of understanding the concept of context.

So in the last 10 years, we have had three owners, eleven permanent managers, god knows how many sporting directors and likely around 100 or more different players putting on the shirt.

Explain your trend then.

All well and good saying we are a dirty club and have been for a decade, but can you actually apply some context?

Data is data, but I'm sure I could find all sorts of false correlations between the all sorts of things that are statistically backed up. But unless you can identify a valid causal link, the hypothesis is useless.

11 different managers, all with different styles and philosphies. 3 owners, all with different agendas. The only constant is the fans. Is it our fault? Chris Cohen is the only playing staff member still around from 2009. Is it his fault?

Unless you can offer a valid reason why a club in 2019 that is entirely different to the one in 2009 beyond the facilities and branding manages to maintain consistency in just that area, the stats are pretty useless
 
Basha73 said:
Sorry Pebble but I’m with CP on this one.

If it was just one season then maybe you could argue it was anomalous. But it isn’t. It’s ten seasons or 460 games. That’s not a glitch or a conspiracy. That’s a trend.

And as CP says cheating is about intent not outcome. Just because a player has been caught it doesn’t change the fact that he has cheated.

Yes there have been examples of other clubs players blatantly cheating but so have ours at times. Perhaps not as successfully but...

I don’t remember us being a dirty shithouse of a team but I am struggling to remember when we weren’t a niggly team, it certainly goes back to Billy mk I at least.

The sad fact is that all clubs look for advantage and look to ‘cheat’ the rules. Just look at players moving forward at throw ins or free kicks.

We aren’t responsible for another’s clubs actions only our own but it’s very difficult to throw stones when we sit in that glass house.
Click to expand...

We're even masterbate at cheating.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Numbers are real world but you are completely incapable of understanding the concept of context.

So in the last 10 years, we have had three owners, eleven permanent managers, god knows how many sporting directors and likely around 100 or more different players putting on the shirt.

Explain your trend then.

All well and good saying we are a dirty club and have been for a decade, but can you actually apply some context?

Data is data, but I'm sure I could find all sorts of false correlations between the all sorts of things that are statistically backed up. But unless you can identify a valid causal link, the hypothesis is useless.

11 different managers, all with different styles and philosphies. 3 owners, all with different agendas. The only constant is the fans. Is it our fault? Chris Cohen is the only playing staff member still around from 2009. Is it his fault?

Unless you can offer a valid reason why a club in 2019 that is entirely different to the one in 2009 beyond the facilities and branding manages to maintain consistency in just that area, the stats are pretty useless
Click to expand...

You really don't want to debate numbers with me Pope...

If I was to guess at the reason I'd say the lack of continuity, the lack of an overarching philosophy coupled with the need to win at all costs to appease owners and fans alike have created the conditions where we've pushed the rules in order to try to succeed.

Chaos begats chaos.
 
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