Another Dark Side of Football | Page 25 | Vital Football

Another Dark Side of Football

Lienking - 24/11/2017 23:43

in_the_top_one - 24/11/2017 21:20

Brexit problems that would be instantly solved by staying in the Customs Union and Single Market (as we were promised):

1) Northern Ireland
2) Gibraltar
3) Capital of Culture
4) Passporting rights
5) NHS staffing crisis
6) UK-EU trade deal
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I am all for staying in the single market. It's quite clear though that the EU will insist on their 4 freedoms to go with this.

1 If Ireland don't want a hard border that's up to them. We are of course free to do what we want.
2 Don't know much about Gibraltar, but doesn't it provide jobs for thousands of people living in Spain
3 Hardly a problem, but just shows how petty the EU are, as we haven't left yet
4 Not sure why this is a problem? Been to Turkey, Tunisia, Egypt etc with no problems. Or are you talking about goods?
5 This has nothing to do with the EU. It's down to our government, but we should have a policy of training, not simply stealing people trained abroad. The government could simply make it clear that any NHS doctors, nurses etc can stay.
6 I hope we get a deal, but we need to remember that they sell us more than we sell them, and not be bullied into making major long term payments.
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6.....just how is us buying more from the EU than we buy from them going to help negotiate any deal?
The UK will still buy the goods from the EU, it will just cost us more....whereas, the EU will be able to set whatever tariffs they like on goods we export to them making trading more difficult for exporters.

No Government is going to put punitive taxes on goods coming into the U.K. if it makes a dramatic price rise for its own citizens.....but we don't control what other governments do to our goods entering their countries, and we can't take retaliatory action against such governments until we have sourced alternative supply lines.
As already pointed out by Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Brazil and the US, that may be harder to do than people think.
Even if we do get a deal with these alternative countries for the goods we currently get from the EU, do you think it will be on good terms? We are not going to negotiate those deals from a position of strength.
And don't forget, the EU will be looking to replace the U.K. supply to the EU from other sources too, so negotiations are going to be carried out in a very competitive environment.

As most major companies in the U.K. are foreign owned, with many from Europe, do you not think that Brussels will not be encouraging those companies to relocate their U.K. interests back to the mainland, particularly the European ones?

Just a thought, but maybe it would have been a little more useful to have done these negotiations before we got to having a referendum so we knew exactly what we were voting for rather than the pack of lies both sides presented.

And the cherry on top is the fact that David Davies and Liam Fox are leading the UK negotiations.

I have to say I'm not confident...
 
Old Red Fart - 24/11/2017 00:25

feco, Oz is one of the biggest exporters of coal in the world and the industry is very busy at the moment trying to explain that we are sending coal to Japan in ever increasing volume and that in some way or other it's been treated to improve the emissions.
I poo pooed the idea as being a load of sales rubbish but in view of your comments I'm now busy rethinking it.

Never too old to learn.
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Coal can be clean, well certainly cleaner than it has been.
Using Fluidized bed technology instead of the old super critical boilers has a massive effect on efficiency, whilst having a huge reduction on emissions.
Germany started a programme to build new or refurbish 26 coal fired plants in 2007.
There electricity is still about 45% coal generated, yet for the last decade the CO2 output has dropped year in year.
It can be done.

Even in old boilers we have cut emissions.
In the U.K., those fitted with Flue Gas Desulfurization remove about 95% of sulphur from the flue gas. The byproduct produced from the process is gypsum, used for building works. So not only is the process cleaning up the flue gas, it's also providing a useful item rather than waste. The plasterboard manufacturers have been stockpiling the stuff for years its so valuable.

Nitrogen Oxide emissions have also been cut massively by the latest burner and airflow control technologies, from over 500mg/cubic meter to around 100mg/cubic meter, and we could be better as the technology and control capabilities improve.

And if we could get the carbon capture to work more effectively we could be looking at making coal a carbon neutral fuel.....stick the carbon back where you mined it from!!
I would suggest we are closer to having a working version of that technology closer to being commercially viable than we are to having electricity storage systems available......and we wil definitely need them if wind, solar and tidal are every be fully engaged as a reliable energy source.

 
David Cameron tried to negotiate a deal, but it didn't get him very far, The EU then said they wouldn't talk to us until we triggered article 50. Now they say they won't talk to us until we promise to pay them £40b. I don't have any faith in our negotiators, but I still believe they will do a better job than Labour.

As for trade tariffs, surely you can reduce imports by taxing things you don't want to import at a high level, protect other production with lower tariffs, and try to encourage more production here. It won't be easy, as we should have acted 40 years back, but I can't believe we import 95% of bikes when we had a major factory up the road, import as many cars as we export etc . I believe we import parts too. We need to encourage our own industry, agriculture etc . It won't be easy, but at least we can plan our own future.
 
Feco - 25/11/2017 20:13

Old Red Fart - 24/11/2017 00:25

feco, Oz is one of the biggest exporters of coal in the world and the industry is very busy at the moment trying to explain that we are sending coal to Japan in ever increasing volume and that in some way or other it's been treated to improve the emissions.
I poo pooed the idea as being a load of sales rubbish but in view of your comments I'm now busy rethinking it.

Never too old to learn.
Click to expand...

Coal can be clean, well certainly cleaner than it has been.

Using Fluidized bed technology instead of the old super critical boilers has a massive effect on increasing efficiency, whilst also giving huge reductions on emissions.

Germany started a programme to build new or refurbish 26 coal fired plants in 2007 Incorporating these technologies.
The US has also been quietly implementing them for the last decade.

German electricity is still about 45% coal generated, yet for the last decade the CO2 output from them has dropped year in year.
It can be done.

Even in old boilers we have cut emissions.
In the U.K., those fitted with Flue Gas Desulfurization remove about 95% of sulphur from the flue gas. The byproduct produced from the process is gypsum, used for building works. So not only is the process cleaning up the flue gas, it's also providing a useful item rather than waste. The plasterboard manufacturers have been stockpiling the stuff for years its so valuable.

Nitrogen Oxide emissions have also been cut massively by the latest burner and airflow control technologies, from over 500mg/cubic meter to around 100mg/cubic meter, and we could be better as the technology and control capabilities improve.

And if we could get the carbon capture to work more effectively we could be looking at making coal a carbon neutral fuel.....stick the carbon back where you mined it from!!

I would suggest we are closer to having a working version of that technology commercially viable than we are to having electricity storage systems available......and we wil definitely need them if wind, solar and tidal are every be fully engaged as a reliable energy source.

Given that, I wonder why our government pulled out of funding carbon capture, just as the breakthrough was about to be made, and a full subsidy would have been due?

My guess is that coal is now political suicide for a government, even worse than nuclear, so we are stuck with this half arsed attitude, doing nothing and gradually leaving an almighty problem for the next generations.

We were lucky we had plenty of spare capacity, that's gone now, nothing left to pass on.

I love politics.....
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feco, I had no idea about any of this and even though I do keep my eyes and ears wide open I've not seen nor heard anything relative to it. I might try to have a go at finding out more about this new style publicity regarding exports to Japan, there might well be more to it than I gave it credit

Thanks for the info. I'd better not ask for your views on the Cardiff game, I'm already just a bit worried.
 
Lienking - 24/11/2017 23:43

in_the_top_one - 24/11/2017 21:20

Brexit problems that would be instantly solved by staying in the Customs Union and Single Market (as we were promised):

1) Northern Ireland
2) Gibraltar
3) Capital of Culture
4) Passporting rights
5) NHS staffing crisis
6) UK-EU trade deal
Click to expand...

I am all for staying in the single market. It's quite clear though that the EU will insist on their 4 freedoms to go with this.

1 If Ireland don't want a hard border that's up to them. We are of course free to do what we want.
2 Don't know much about Gibraltar, but doesn't it provide jobs for thousands of people living in Spain
3 Hardly a problem, but just shows how petty the EU are, as we haven't left yet
4 Not sure why this is a problem? Been to Turkey, Tunisia, Egypt etc with no problems. Or are you talking about goods?
5 This has nothing to do with the EU. It's down to our government, but we should have a policy of training, not simply stealing people trained abroad. The government could simply make it clear that any NHS doctors, nurses etc can stay.
6 I hope we get a deal, but we need to remember that they sell us more than we sell them, and not be bullied into making major long term payments.
Click to expand...
A one way border in Ireland, or any non-"frictionless" border is not a solution that would be acceptable to people on either side and would clearly and recklessly jeopardise the good Friday agreement. You're old enough to remember what living in the uk and Ireland was like before that.

I am not talking about personal passport or goods; I am talking about services, which are the backbone of our economy. Read up on the impact of losing passporting then we can continue that bit of the conversation if you want to.

I agree that there has been a major dereliction of duty to train our own medical and support staff for the NHS but the current government is deterring people rather than encouraging them. We are also creating, deliberately, a hostile environment for foreign workers and unrealistic and unfounded targets for immigration. Applications from the eu are down something like 95 percent and applications croon non eu nations is also down very dramatically. This compounds the existing staffing crisis. If you consider this a temporary blip that we must endure to unshackle ourselves from the eu (ironically with the goal of reducing immigration) then you will be responsible for many deaths. I don't like to be sensationalist but, yes, it really is that serious. And you can add to that the fact that unemployment (albeit with cooked books thanks to zero hours contracts, etc) is very low. How many of the few remaining unemployed will you be training as doctors, nurses or minimum wage cleaners?
There are more than 30,000 full time posts advertised at the moment and the shortage is probably nearer 40,000, mostly nurses and midwives. This is making it more dangerous to go to a&e or have a baby. Despite this, they are cutting bursaries because there is no money thanks to Brexit. It beggars belief that this is a considered an acceptable course of action.

6. It's no good "hoping for a deal". There simply has to be one of some kind, as discussed above. No deal no Brexit. If you're referring just to a trade deal then you must start thinking in terms of the importance to European and British economies rather than the absolute numbers:
Half of our goods exports go to the eu. Any hindrance or tariffs are a massive problem.
A few percent (something like 3-5pc, if memory serves) of theirs come here. That would indeed be a blow for the German car and French wine industries, but not crippling.
Probably when it comes to service exports (c. 40pc? of our total exports) the numbers are more extreme.
They need is more than we need them is a complete myth. Of course, it would be nice to have the latest numbers from Davis and Hammond's reports. No wonder he's so gloomy.
 
And just to show that Davis is talking complete bullshit when he says that letting them know the results of our analysis would give them the upset hand, here is a mass of similar reports published openly by the European Parliament.
www.richardcorbett.org.uk/brexit-impact-studies-ep/

These are the analyses they will be basing their position upon, not Davis's fag packet. :19:
 
Some better news for the pharma industry today after the departure of the ema and the scrapping of Johnson and Johnson's 30-50 mordant startup incubator. Two development centres earmarked. They obviously think they will be resistant to the damage. Good stuff - we will need a lot more of that.

 
The majority in England voting for Brexit was nearly two million people. As far as I am concerned we are leaving full stop. The EU has a history of bullying people into a second referendum. Even Ireland is attempting to bully us. I may be overly optimistic, but you are simply using your views to bias things too. As I said the NHS situation has nothing to do with Brexit. It is partly due to the new English test, but mainly due to the Government not clarifying things. The government has the World to choose doctors and nurses from, many of whom speak better English than EU applicants. The bursary policy is nothing to do with Brexit either. The Tories think (rightly or wrongly) that more people will be trained this way, rather than upping the bursaries to pay for them all.

Most of the world has borders and imports and exports coming in. Why does everyone think that the UK, largely with a sea border is incapable of organising something. If Ireland ends up with a hard border that is down to Ireland, the EU and the DUP.

Again with trade, it will be a small percentage of their overall exports, but some places like Calais, Zeebrugge etc will be devastated if they don't trade. What will happen to Poland if a million poles return because they are unemployed? If they make us too poor to go on holiday, what will happen to Malta, Cypus etc ?

It is in all our interests to come to an amicable agreement. The EU would rather shoot themselves in the foot first though.
 
But you won't say what "leaving full stop" means. And you offer no solutions.

You must have missed the bit where I said that we can't currently fill our NHS vacancies from ANY country and that applications from everywhere (but particularly the EU) are down substantially. People are leaving the NHS at a rate of knots and we simply can't replace them with our own. Not now and not for very, very long time (as in decades). When you start with that background, then make recruitment harder and money tighter, it is everything to do with Brexit and people will die.

And it really isn't just up to Ireland to impose a hard border if they choose. That is a pathetically simplistic understanding of the situation and dereliction of any sort of moral responsibility for the Irish, Northern Irish Brits and potentially us on in GB too.
"a confidential study conducted by the UK government and the European Commission listed 142 cross-border activities on the island of Ireland that would be negatively affected by a hard Brexit. They include heart surgery in Dublin for children from Northern Ireland as well as cancer treatment in Derry for people from the Republic because patients, clinicians and ambulances are free to move across the border without checks."
Was this adequately taken into account during the referendum debate? If new information comes to light, as it does every day, then people should be entitled to change their minds. We aren't being bullied, grown ups are trying to safeguard human beings.

By the way, David Davis has scraped in releasing the reports to the select committee just before the deadline and may well be in contempt of parliament for editing them heavily to save his embarrassment. I hope he has to resign over it because he's a lazy, arrogant, incompetent, lying pillock. But that's just my opinion.
 
So Brexit is stopping us getting nurses from everywhere in the world outside the EU? I fail to understand why nurses would fail to come from a country outside the EU because we will send them back after Brexit. I am no tory lover, and the shortage is far more likely to have been caused by lack of funding, pay freezes and insufficient UK training because historically it has been cheaper to steal nurses from other places, rather than train your own.

Similarly I despair of both the EU and the UK if they can't solve a problem as simple as moving patients from one hospital to another. The Irish want to scupper our democratic rights, which to me have now become more important than simple economics. 45 years ago I did a degree in economics, and most of what I learnt is pretty clear - that for every economist who has one view, there is another one who has the opposite view. Everything is speculation. If the Irish scupper the trade talks, we will have no choice other than press ahead with a hard border before it's too late, and they will only have themselves to blame.
 
in_the_top_one - 27/11/2017 13:02

Some better news for the pharma industry today after the departure of the ema and the scrapping of Johnson and Johnson's 30-50 mordant startup incubator. Two development centres earmarked. They obviously think they will be resistant to the damage. Good stuff - we will need a lot more of that.
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There are plenty of good news stories out there, particularly in property.
 
But they are far outweighed by the predicted bad news and none are because of Brexit, Toms. (With the exception of drop in the ocean benefits resulting from a fallen pound.)
 
"So Brexit is stopping us getting nurses from everywhere in the world outside the EU?"
Yes.

As for economists with opposing views, is it not then astonishing that they were almost completely in agreement about brexit? Maybe because the outcome was utterly predictable and the only question left was, 'How bad'?
 
in_the_top_one - 28/11/2017 10:24

But none are because of Brexit, Toms. (With the exception of drop in the ocean benefits resulting from a fallen pound.)
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The point is that big banking and tech deals have continued to occur despite Brexit.
 
None of those deals are because of Brexit, Toms. Don't pretend that they are.

It is clear that the economy is not performing well and the key reason is brexit.

Only manufacturing has increased and that's due to the falling pound.
If manufacturing were, say, 10% of our economy and increased, say 10%. That's a 1% increase because of a ~15% devaluation of our entire country, which is worth trillions. That alone costs the NHS around a billion pounds each year in purchasing from overseas, a 5 billion hole in the Defence 10 year programme, and so on.

It is ridiculously small compensation for a colossal blow. When you can stack one against the other and have them balance, I'll listen.
 
in_the_top_one - 28/11/2017 12:14

None of those deals are because of Brexit, Toms. Don't pretend that they are.

It is clear that the economy is not performing well and the key reason is brexit.

Only manufacturing has increased and that's due to the falling pound.
If manufacturing were, say, 10% of our economy and increased, say 10%. That's a 1% increase because of a ~15% devaluation of our entire country, which is worth trillions. That alone costs the NHS around a billion pounds each year in purchasing from overseas, a 5 billion hole in the Defence 10 year programme, and so on.

It is ridiculously small compensation for a colossal blow. When you can stack one against the other and have them balance, I'll listen.
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The point is that these deals went ahead despite Brexit. They were not frozen or aborted when the Brexit vote happened. This is positive. Most people who voted Brexit acknowledged it would not be a bed of roses to start with

What I’m still not getting is how societies of the other 150 plus countries outside the eu are not breaking down as a result of not being able to take in eu workers. If the nhs needs further support, no doubt they can recruit from around the globe easily satisfying the business need and skills test.

The notion that the uk will be shunned by the rest of the world because of Brexit is a fallacy. We will come to arrangements and we will make our way. The only thing that would truly be a problem is if Corbyn got in. As confirmed by Morgan Stanley which would in those circumstances red flag the uk to their investment clients

 
Toms we can agree that inward investment is a good thing.
We can also agree that new deals are happening despite brexit (which includes the implicit acknowledgement that brexit is bad for the economy).

What we now need to do is quantify "not a bed of roses" and also quantify "to begin with".
How bad will it be? And for how many generations?


It is Britain shunning the rest of the world, not them shunning us! I imagine they are pretty pissed off that we are leaving our agreements. Not just with the EU, but with all the countries around the world with which we have deals in place, or in the pipeline, via the EU. When we come to renegotiate those deals we will have the backing of our small market of 68 million people as opposed to that of 508 million. And we will still have to abide by the legislation laid down for us by the EU, the US and China, whether you think we will be 'independent' or not. Only from now until eternity we will have no say in the making of those regulations. Dumb move.

I've shown that the NHS is severely struggling to recruit from around the world and that struggle has been magnified by a 95% drop in applicants from the EU. So, no, it won't be easy at all. What possible basis do you have for suggesting it will be easy? How many of our major industries have come out and said that they'll be better off, or equally well off, after the end of free movement? And how many have come out demanding the opposite? Mine will be sorely damaged. Maybe you know the ins and outs of all these sectors better than their leaders, but I doubt it. You're just waving your arms in the air, shrugging and saying it'll be alright on the night. Again, no solutions offered whatsoever, just jingoism

And on top of that, there is a push to enshrine the leaving date in law, rather than thinking rationally about how long it will take to sort out the mess in a way that will cause least damage.
 
toms - 28/11/2017 13:18

The notion that the uk will be shunned by the rest of the world because of Brexit is a fallacy. We will come to arrangements and we will make our way. The only thing that would truly be a problem is if Corbyn got in. As confirmed by Morgan Stanley which would in those circumstances red flag the uk to their investment clients
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Jacob Rees Mogg is already advising his clients to move out of the UK, entirely because of the hard brexit course of action he favours!!!
What a traitor. Talking down Britain. Etc. etc.
 
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