in_the_top_one
Vital Football Legend
We've probably got a crack team of lawyers on it.
Actually the parallels of baseless and unquestioning faith in shrewd competence behind the scenes are uncanny.
Another Dark Side of Football
- Thread starter brianbru
- Start date
Actually the parallels of baseless and unquestioning faith in shrewd competence behind the scenes are uncanny.
Agree totally with your first part. The negotiation tactics are abysmal . Difficult to believe what a shambles they are. You can't negotiate from a position of saying we will pay £40 billion no matter what, and we definitely won't have a hard border. We should be telling them that with no deal they get no money other than specific negotiations, and we will do what we want with the border. We are supposed to be in negotiations, not allowing them to bully us.
Not sure about your second part. Are you saying there are 17 million extremists? There is one thing for sure , the more they bully us the more certain I am that we should leave. This is now about democracy, not economics.
in_the_top_one
Vital Football Legend
Pretty sure it's just you that thinks a hard border is an acceptable solution. Neither side of the border want that, nor we on the mainland. It really is not the same as other land borders that the eu has in the east. Can't believe I need to explain that tbh!
No, I don't think there are 17 million extremists but their votes have been hijacked by extremists. Nobody was even talking about leaving the single market before the vote and the customs union didn't even come up in any debates. Remaining in these makes many issues evaporate but extremists are concerned about the ecj. With any trade deal there will have to be oversight on both sides. Some are now suggesting that it was obvious we would leave all along and that it is even a better option. It really isn't. We're being sold down the river.
No, I don't think there are 17 million extremists but their votes have been hijacked by extremists. Nobody was even talking about leaving the single market before the vote and the customs union didn't even come up in any debates. Remaining in these makes many issues evaporate but extremists are concerned about the ecj. With any trade deal there will have to be oversight on both sides. Some are now suggesting that it was obvious we would leave all along and that it is even a better option. It really isn't. We're being sold down the river.
in_the_top_one
Vital Football Legend
Thought it was about immigration??
Democracies are allowed to change their minds. They do it all the time. It is pretty much what defines a democracy. Even the lying, incompetent, time wasting, criminally negligent David Davis knows that!
Democracies are allowed to change their minds. They do it all the time. It is pretty much what defines a democracy. Even the lying, incompetent, time wasting, criminally negligent David Davis knows that!
The EU has it's four basic freedoms, therefore surely anyone who voted knew that if we were going to control our own immigration we would have to leave the single market. I don't want a physical border in Ireland, but the decision should be OURS, and we should not be told what to do by the EU and Ireland. Of course the easy solution would be for Ireland to leave the EU too, but I don't suppose they would like us to tell them to do that any more than I like them telling us what to do.
I have read articles saying they trade with the UK more than the EU, and if they have to start paying to make up our shortfall, some people think they may end up leaving.
Anyhow whatever we all think, this government will probably end up paying all the money and leave us with a deal that effectively leaves us in the EU with no one happy on either side.
I have read articles saying they trade with the UK more than the EU, and if they have to start paying to make up our shortfall, some people think they may end up leaving.
Anyhow whatever we all think, this government will probably end up paying all the money and leave us with a deal that effectively leaves us in the EU with no one happy on either side.
I don't disagree that a democracy can change its mind. However it's clear the EU isn't a democracy. We have had to wait over 40 years for any say on this. During those 40 years I have never heard any policies put forward for any of us to vote on. Every time the EU has lost a referendum there has been another one shortly after. They have made us wait 40 years for this vote, so it only seems fair to wait the same time for the next one.
in_the_top_one
Vital Football Legend
You're forgetting that Us includes the people of Northern Ireland. It was they who scuppered the agreement at the start of the week. Those MPs cost TM £100m each so you might have thought she would let them know what she was doing behind closed doors. Apparently they don't want to be part of Ireland or be subject to eu rules without having any say in how the rules are made. Who knew?!
As we have discussed before, the eu is more democratic than the UK system. It really is, you just don't want to believe it.
As we have discussed before, the eu is more democratic than the UK system. It really is, you just don't want to believe it.
in_the_top_one
Vital Football Legend
The first trade talks in the entire history of earth where the two entities are trying to get further away from each other. We're literally negotiating a worse deal than the status quo. And look at the clowns representing us. Fingers crossed, Toms!
in_the_top_one
Vital Football Legend
Crikey - I seriously hope not. We do not want a deal like Canada's! It is very substantially worse than what we have now and doesn't cover things like financial services, a major pillar of our economy.
(It's much better than Canada had before, of course, that's why they did it.)
If we want to continue to sell into the EU we will need regulatory harmony. The only way we get to define those regulations is by retaining one of the driving seats. Unfortunately, that means accepting their rules. The same is true for the US and China.
Glibly saying that Canada have made a deal of some sort is empty. You have to compare the options and we're sitting in an enviable seat right now. What if The Best Deal Possible is far worse than the status quo? And why aren't we talking about protections for the people and the environment and how we could use our influence to force positive behavioural change on the continent and across the globe. I'm fed up with our own people trying to weaken our position in search of some non-existent control, and chasing emerging markets in which we will be thoroughly out-battled by the big players of the EU, China and the US.
(It's much better than Canada had before, of course, that's why they did it.)
If we want to continue to sell into the EU we will need regulatory harmony. The only way we get to define those regulations is by retaining one of the driving seats. Unfortunately, that means accepting their rules. The same is true for the US and China.
Glibly saying that Canada have made a deal of some sort is empty. You have to compare the options and we're sitting in an enviable seat right now. What if The Best Deal Possible is far worse than the status quo? And why aren't we talking about protections for the people and the environment and how we could use our influence to force positive behavioural change on the continent and across the globe. I'm fed up with our own people trying to weaken our position in search of some non-existent control, and chasing emerging markets in which we will be thoroughly out-battled by the big players of the EU, China and the US.
I said if Canada can do it. I didn’t say a deal like Canada.
I’m fed up of our own people negatively portraying things making the pms job almost impossible. Many are doing it for their own political purposes
Today is a very good day for the uk. There will be more battles to come and things might still come apart but today you should be reasonably happy about the agreement reached on the three core issues particularly eu citizens rights which you have previously been concerned about.
I’m fed up of our own people negatively portraying things making the pms job almost impossible. Many are doing it for their own political purposes
Today is a very good day for the uk. There will be more battles to come and things might still come apart but today you should be reasonably happy about the agreement reached on the three core issues particularly eu citizens rights which you have previously been concerned about.
in_the_top_one
Vital Football Legend
Well you implied that we should do a deal like Canada. So now you're extrapolating to say "if a deal can be done then a better deal can be done". I doubt it.
I haven't had a chance to read the deal for EU citizens right yet. Is it good?
Not sure exactly what the magic has been today. My conclusion at the moment is that they have kicked the can down the road. Why? Probably because TM, the DUP and the EU all want to save her job.
The facts remain that:
1. Ireland are compelled by EU rules.
2. There can be no hard border.
3. So NI must comply with EU rules.
4. But there can be no red line in the Irish sea unless the NI government change their minds (which they won't).
5. So the whole UK has to comply with EU rules.
6. Thus a massive loss of sovereignty for all of us.
7. At a cost of £50bn,
8. Trebles all round!
Exciting, huh?
I am very pleased about commitments to Horizon 2020 and also the rumour of free movement for the NHS. The latter, in particular, was kinda inevitable but it won't please the Immigrants Out brigade.
"I’m fed up of our own people negatively portraying things making the pms job almost impossible."
Not that old chestnut again? It's the remainers' fault that it is a shambles? Boohoo. Quitters told us it would be easy and we would be prosperous. Then they said it would be difficult. But it's worse than both of those. I and other remainers were accused of scare@@@@ering and Project Fear (ironic since the scary stories all came from the ranting unlimited immigration, Turkey, EU dictatorship crew). Now the difficulties are brought into sharp focus and instead of conceding that project fear was actually project reality, it's our fault. There was an awful journalist on QT last night who said we will be prosperous if we are optimistic! Your stance here is little better. Time to get real.
I haven't had a chance to read the deal for EU citizens right yet. Is it good?
Not sure exactly what the magic has been today. My conclusion at the moment is that they have kicked the can down the road. Why? Probably because TM, the DUP and the EU all want to save her job.
The facts remain that:
1. Ireland are compelled by EU rules.
2. There can be no hard border.
3. So NI must comply with EU rules.
4. But there can be no red line in the Irish sea unless the NI government change their minds (which they won't).
5. So the whole UK has to comply with EU rules.
6. Thus a massive loss of sovereignty for all of us.
7. At a cost of £50bn,
8. Trebles all round!
Exciting, huh?
I am very pleased about commitments to Horizon 2020 and also the rumour of free movement for the NHS. The latter, in particular, was kinda inevitable but it won't please the Immigrants Out brigade.
"I’m fed up of our own people negatively portraying things making the pms job almost impossible."
Not that old chestnut again? It's the remainers' fault that it is a shambles? Boohoo. Quitters told us it would be easy and we would be prosperous. Then they said it would be difficult. But it's worse than both of those. I and other remainers were accused of scare@@@@ering and Project Fear (ironic since the scary stories all came from the ranting unlimited immigration, Turkey, EU dictatorship crew). Now the difficulties are brought into sharp focus and instead of conceding that project fear was actually project reality, it's our fault. There was an awful journalist on QT last night who said we will be prosperous if we are optimistic! Your stance here is little better. Time to get real.
in_the_top_one
Vital Football Legend
1-5 are now enshrined in the document. There is no win here.
Bremen Tree
Vital 1st Team Regular
It appears the TM has let down the millions of Brits living in the EU. Post 2019 Brits in the EU will have less rights than EU citizens living in the UK.
So it looks like my family and I will being giving up our passports before 2019. This so I can continue to make career moves within my company and so my children can have a better, affordable, education.
This could change during the second round of talks but judging by the inept performance of Team May in the first round my pen and application form will be at the ready.
So it looks like my family and I will being giving up our passports before 2019. This so I can continue to make career moves within my company and so my children can have a better, affordable, education.
This could change during the second round of talks but judging by the inept performance of Team May in the first round my pen and application form will be at the ready.
Bremen Tree
Vital 1st Team Regular
Just heard yet another lie/spin from prominent leaver Grove on the BBC World Service. He said the rights of the UK citizens in the EU has been guaranteed. Bo11ocks lad. Guaranteed until 2019 so no change.
Thereafter, we'll have to give up our passports in order to, in some cases, keep our jobs. TBH I wont't be losing sleep there but more BS from the leave campaign
Thereafter, we'll have to give up our passports in order to, in some cases, keep our jobs. TBH I wont't be losing sleep there but more BS from the leave campaign
This government will end up with a deal that no one is happy with. However you previously said we were legally obliged to pay the money, so surely what little we have gained we have got for free from your perspective? I would say we will also benefit from not having to make any further payments saving us billions, but presumably TM will now offer more than we are currently paying to get a trade deal!
Most sensible people have no problem with immigration where it is needed.
in_the_top_one
Vital Football Legend
We have not gained our most anything yet because the bill hasn't been settled. I don't know if 40 or 50 billion is the right price any more than you do. Given that this is a very ball park figure and the chancellor says it could be more, I'm not going to celebrate getting anything for free just yet, thanks.
I'm interested to know what you base your opinion on that we will save money. Maybe you can say me straight?
No credible economist thinks that we will save any money at all when we leave. On top of all that expertise, it simply stands to reason that we cannot get a better trading and partnership deal than the deal we currently have with the eu. Our deals with the rest of the world will be negotiated from a far weaker position (because we won't be part of the best trading bloc around) and the only possible way we can make it financially better is to deregulate and have an ethics bonfire. We will be poorer in the short and long term: materially, ecologically and morally.
I'm interested to know what you base your opinion on that we will save money. Maybe you can say me straight?
No credible economist thinks that we will save any money at all when we leave. On top of all that expertise, it simply stands to reason that we cannot get a better trading and partnership deal than the deal we currently have with the eu. Our deals with the rest of the world will be negotiated from a far weaker position (because we won't be part of the best trading bloc around) and the only possible way we can make it financially better is to deregulate and have an ethics bonfire. We will be poorer in the short and long term: materially, ecologically and morally.
