AA/12 Step Program exposed as a failure

HeathfieldRoad1874

HeathfieldRoad1874

Miserable Sod
Well, it appears that the ISIS thread has gone off track, and people want to discuss the issues surrounding Alcoholics Anonymous. Before Fear blows a gasket, I have started this thread, and will quote some of the comment from the other thread over here.

I'll start things off with this table, which shows the effectiveness of Alcohol treatments. It shows that the 12 step program is the 37th most effective, and AA 38th. So, there are 36 treatments all better, yet the propaganda machine roll on and people still think it is the frontline treatment.

http://www.behaviortherapy.com/ResearchDiv/whatworks.aspx
 
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/03/the-surprising-failures-of-12-steps/284616/

“Peer reviewed studies peg the success rate of AA somewhere between five and 10 percent,” writes Dodes. “About one of every 15 people who enter these programs is able to become and stay sober.”

This contrasts with AA’s self-reported figures: A 2007 internal survey found that 33 percent of members said they had been sober for more than a decade. Twelve percent claimed sobriety for five to 10 years, 24 percent were sober for one to five years, and 31 percent were sober for under a year. Of course, those don’t take into account the large number of alcoholics who never make it through their first year of meetings, subsequently never completing the 12 steps (the definition of success, by AA’s standards).


Additionally, there’s AA’s barefaced religious affiliations to consider. True, the 12 steps have been worded in such a way as to suggest a certain amount of leeway in which God (or “higher power”) one ultimately surrenders to; but AA is a self-identified Christian organization with a significant portion of its methodology rooted in prayer. As it says in AA’s founding literature, known as the Big Book, “To some people we need not, and probably should not, emphasize the spiritual feature on our first approach. We might prejudice them. At the moment we are trying to put our lives in order. But this is not an end in itself. Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God.”







Lies!! Lies!! Lies!! They just keep telling lies and people still believe them
 
kefkat - 27/2/2015 15:25

First of all A.A was set up in 1935 by 2 guys who all be unwittingly at the time stumbled on to an answer to an age old problem. They met by a spiritual path (it didn't just happen) as we call it. The very base of AA is when 1 alcoholic talks to another recovery can begin. You see we get each other, we understand yet you can't kid a kidder. Where we understand, we offer a solution.

The solution is yes we are happy, and free and we have to work for it, if we want it. There are no fast track answers. We are simply told, don't pick up 1 drink, 1 day at a time and keep coming back. It will all start make sense to you over time.

We don't make anyone sign up for anything, or do anything.

Anyway I digress. Our co founders Bill W & Dr Bob wrote the main text of AA called The Big Book in 1939 with the first 100 sober men and women.

The BB comprises of the prefaces, the Dr's Opinion and then the first 164 pages. The rest of the book then is of people's stories. The BB stories have been updated over the years, leaving in a few of the original members stories.

The rest of the book meaning the prefaces, the Dr's Opinion and the first 164 pages have never been updated, so they are written in quite an old fashioned way, which is off putting to begin with.

The reason the beginning of the book has never been updated is because it would take the core message out of AA is that it works.

The Big Book and the steps were taken out of Christian principles, however as been left wide enough open for anyone to beable to work the program of whatever faith or none faith.

We work on attraction rather than promotion. We are a membership of people all over the world who are like minded and the things you talk of VOTN is most certainly what we do.

No one would want it if they couldn't see we are happy and free with families back in our life, health etc. etc.

This is why it is so difficult to explain AA in a few sentences has it has all the dimensions you speak of.

A.A worldwide/and U.K board of trustees also includes many highly renowned people of medicine and psychiatry so we can't be that bad as these people would not want to be part of us and how we work

The 12 steps as old fashioned as they seem, are really an old fashioned way written of many sorts of therapy.

We do say other agencies have there place. They do. We work with them all. The work is done by the board of trustees down to the members, has we have the experience.

We acknowledge that people can find other ways and if they can that is there road and choice. We offer what has worked for us.

My Christian faith is totally separate to AA. It is my faith yes, that came about through me looking for what worked for me.

We do not offer or promote any type of faith within AA. Each individual finds what works for them.

The fact is that the majority of our meetings are held in churches and spiritual center's because they want to be of service, like the spiritual aspect to our program and realize as we do that we all have our personal journey.

If AA was a s bad as some people make out then we wouldn't be so widely accepted by professionals, agencies, faith based and so on
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HeathfieldRoad1874 - 27/2/2015 15:30

kefkat - 27/2/2015 15:25


The Big Book and the steps were taken out of Christian principles, however as been left wide enough open for anyone to beable to work the program of whatever faith or none faith.
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Have you actually read the Big Book? If you have, you have either misunderstood it, or you are lying to us. It clearly sets out to deliberately fool others:-

“To some people we need not, and probably should not, emphasize the spiritual feature on our first approach. We might prejudice them. At the moment we are trying to put our lives in order. But this is not an end in itself. Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God.”

There is no argument about this. It is clear and intentional deceit, as is what follows:

"It is seldom wise to approach an individual, who still smarts from our injustice to him, and announce we have gone religious."

It's all about religion.
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kefkat - 27/2/2015 17:42

Villan Of The North - 27/2/2015 15:53

Do you not see it as blasphemous KK, the fact that AA apparently encourages people to see and call other things God? I could understand someone who has no faith not caring about this but you actively support a group that takes the name of your God in vain. I don't understand that.
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I would have done once, yes: I have grown in my faith and spiritual life, I have learnt it is none of my business what others believe in. I take from AA what I need and leave the rest behind.

I have friends out of AA who don't believe as I do. I have friends who are atheist.

i will always talk with those who want to know more about my faith, I will always guide. It is about allowing people to find what works for them.

It will seem strange to you, I know, however I have learnt to accept that everyone is 1/at different stages of recovery 2/ We can't all believe or not the same.

We learn about mutual respect for others. If someone was to slate my Christian faith to my face I ofcourse would ask them appropriately not to do it. I would ask that of anyone in or out of the rooms.

A.A is a puzzling perception as it doesn't conform like a usual society of people do, in the same way.

We can all learn from each other, even if it is ways of not to be in life. Everyone is my teacher, even if I dislike the person. I can learn how to do things differently through others.

I get AA is a real hard concept for the average person to get there head around. I have learnt to take the whole package of meetings/steps/service/sponsorship etc take what I need and leave the rest behind
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kefkat - 27/2/2015 17:42

Villan Of The North - 27/2/2015 15:53

Do you not see it as blasphemous KK, the fact that AA apparently encourages people to see and call other things God? I could understand someone who has no faith not caring about this but you actively support a group that takes the name of your God in vain. I don't understand that.
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I would have done once, yes: I have grown in my faith and spiritual life, I have learnt it is none of my business what others believe in. I take from AA what I need and leave the rest behind.

I have friends out of AA who don't believe as I do. I have friends who are atheist.

i will always talk with those who want to know more about my faith, I will always guide. It is about allowing people to find what works for them.

It will seem strange to you, I know, however I have learnt to accept that everyone is 1/at different stages of recovery 2/ We can't all believe or not the same.

We learn about mutual respect for others. If someone was to slate my Christian faith to my face I ofcourse would ask them appropriately not to do it. I would ask that of anyone in or out of the rooms.

A.A is a puzzling perception as it doesn't conform like a usual society of people do, in the same way.

We can all learn from each other, even if it is ways of not to be in life. Everyone is my teacher, even if I dislike the person. I can learn how to do things differently through others.

I get AA is a real hard concept for the average person to get there head around. I have learnt to take the whole package of meetings/steps/service/sponsorship etc take what I need and leave the rest behind
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It would appear to me that KK hasn't read the literature from her own organisation!!!! It specifically states that they can't help Atheists, so surely that has to make it religious by definition?

And it still doesn't escape the fact it is far less effective than even doing nothing, and causes serious psychological harm to the a good proportion of the 80% that don't finish the program.

More awareness needs to be made on the subject, and if I knew someone who needed help it would be that last place I would make them go.
 
kefkat - 28/2/2015 23:17

Anyway whatever your point of view and for those who are non alcoholic who haven't been to AA it's a bit like talking about joinery when you aren't trained in it. Call it what you will all and be glad you don't need to find out about it.

For those of you who get to snigger at other people's it says more about you than about AA. No Clive I don't mean you.

I rest my case on it. Go and find out is all I have to say. Tell all the agencies, professionals etc. who we work with they don't know what they are doing. Perhaps they will ask you what your job training is and tell you to stick to what you know!

The powerful tool on VV is............. :14:
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I find it difficult to accept that you can't read the figures and not have any doubts. It's not me, but professional studies into the subject. I just read them with an open mind. And while we are on the subject, what are your qualifications? Or those of the other fellows in your group? I assume you are all well trained!!!

35 States in America recently defined it as "Highly Religious", which is one step down on a Cult over there. One fun way to spend an afternoon is to look up the Christians against 12 step Deception group on facebook. I'm no Christian, but even I feel a bit sorry for them.
 
HeathfieldRoad1874 - 2/3/2015 13:16

HeathfieldRoad1874 - 27/2/2015 15:30

kefkat - 27/2/2015 15:25


The Big Book and the steps were taken out of Christian principles, however as been left wide enough open for anyone to beable to work the program of whatever faith or none faith.
Click to expand...

Have you actually read the Big Book? If you have, you have either misunderstood it, or you are lying to us. It clearly sets out to deliberately fool others:-

“To some people we need not, and probably should not, emphasize the spiritual feature on our first approach. We might prejudice them. At the moment we are trying to put our lives in order. But this is not an end in itself. Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God.”

There is no argument about this. It is clear and intentional deceit, as is what follows:

"It is seldom wise to approach an individual, who still smarts from our injustice to him, and announce we have gone religious."

It's all about religion.
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Your answer to that is when I have stopped laughing (and I didn't read this post) was ofcourse I have. That is the main stay of our faith.

I actually set up the Big Book study in York 9 years ago which is the strongest meet in York.

You can't just take a few pages or lines of a book and that's it. I know the book is old fashioned. I know when the book was written.

I am fully aware it was founded on Christian principles. I have always said that.

Not keen on the title of your subject mind. AA can't be a failure as such as there are millions of us in recovery. I would personally have just called it recovery thread so other ways etc. could be bought in. Eh you started it and I should have expected anything else :14:
 
kefkat - 2/3/2015 12:21

I have recovered from drinking. The drink is but the symptom. The rest is about living soberly. What we call the ism (I Self Me) AA works on the basis of comradey, being around like minded people and for new people a way to get away from the old life, as they usually mix with people who do the same as them.

The most predominant thing is A.A works from the ground level up, so if members didn't stay around there would be no one there to help the newcomer. Some might say not a bad thing. However that is how it works.

I really do not want to be continue an AA conversation because it has been done do death and there is stuff we will never agree on. It doesn't matter. It works for me and millions and through it we help more. If that is wrong in others eyes so be it. It doesn't matter if others don't understand. To thine ownself be true, whomever you are.
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The reason you recovered is that you stuck with the program. Those it doesn't suit, or don't want to believe they are powerless, get no help, and the messages they are left with can be deeply scarring.

You were lucky, kk. You were one of the 5%. That leaves 95% not being helped, and a good proportion of those do recover through other methods. There are those, however, that become worse after AA, due to being told they can't recover unless they finish the 12 steps. Obviously, that is nonsense, because many people recover without them.

Are you seriously telling me that if you were presented with a more effective method of helping people, you would ignore it? You are that entrenched in the 12 step program?
 
kefkat - 2/3/2015 12:56

HeathfieldRoad1874 - 2/3/2015 12:27

The reason you recovered is that you stuck with the program. Those it doesn't suit, or don't want to believe they are powerless, get no help, and the messages they are left with can be deeply scarring.

You were lucky, kk. You were one of the 5%. That leaves 95% not being helped, and a good proportion of those do recover through other methods. There are those, however, that become worse after AA, due to being told they can't recover unless they finish the 12 steps. Obviously, that is nonsense, because many people recover without them.

Are you seriously telling me that if you were presented with a more effective method of helping people, you would ignore it? You are that entrenched in the 12 step program?
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I don't ignore anything Heath. Through what I do I get to help 100's and 100's of people in more than just addiction.

Ofcourse I would listen to it. Indeed we work with services that have different approaches. I am entrenched in 12 step (I would be after 12 years in 3 weeks of sobriety) however yes I have been blessed, with the fact of who has been around me, who has come into my life. The 12 steps are tool not to be taken as literally as some say.

As you know Heath, I am interpretational with everything so the same applies here.

I have no issue with people finding different ways. Knowing our literature as I do, it says in the preface for example, in The Big Book, this book is written by a 100 men and women who have recovered from a hopeless state of mind and body.

It also says that 'we don't say we are the only way' in the literature. it also says 'that other agencies have there place'

The problem is like anything people change things, that are said, whether that is through perception or whatever. That is what happens when people are involved.

The 1 thing with AA is that people their talk differently with different people within the rooms. It depends on whom they talk with and that person perception and what is said, to what you hear.

Though that is a problem there are those of us if we know who can put it right.

At 1 time, you may not know there was an anti AA thing in The U.K. That is because in 1997 the new government wanted to get involved in AA and as our traditions state we do not affiliate (anyway who the heck would want the government involved in anything)

So the government went off and set up all kinds of things and preached anti us. It took them about 10 years to realize what they were doing wasn't working and 'ah boo AA is free' It costs them nothing.

That is why (although we always have) we cooperate more and more with professionals, agencies and services, as especially in these cost cutting times, we do what they can't.

It has been decided through many years that people (whatever the illness) get better in groups. Resources can last only so long. AA is seen as an aftercare facility.

I am also an independent on a umbrella network forum in York working for the good of those to come in recovery. This is how the agencies and communities work together to bring life and activities to those coming or are in recovery.

I don't just do AA to help people with their issues. I don't care how someone gets well as long as they get well. If they come to AA and it works fantastic. If they don't they don't and they find another way that is fine by me. I work along side some who don't do AA. We all have the same goal (or should do) and that is to see people get well.

I know the no's aren't big who get well in AA. People do get well other ways. Unfortunately it is an illness, where more than, however people get well, don't ever recover for whatever reason.
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HeathfieldRoad1874 - 2/3/2015 13:18

It would appear to me that KK hasn't read the literature from her own organisation!!!! It specifically states that they can't help Atheists, so surely that has to make it religious by definition?

And it still doesn't escape the fact it is far less effective than even doing nothing, and causes serious psychological harm to the a good proportion of the 80% that don't finish the program.

More awareness needs to be made on the subject, and if I knew someone who needed help it would be that last place I would make them go.
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LOL as I said I have read it all. I had to to work the program. The Big Book has a chapter in called Agnostics. There are members of AA who are atheists. They have atheists meetings in The U.S.

The program has grown and evolved. I have not seen anything in any of the literature about it can't help atheists. I would like to know where you found that?
 
kefkat - 2/3/2015 13:22


Your answer to that is when I have stopped laughing (and I didn't read this post) was ofcourse I have. That is the main stay of our faith.

I actually set up the Big Book study in York 9 years ago which is the strongest meet in York.

You can't just take a few pages or lines of a book and that's it. I know the book is old fashioned. I know when the book was written.

I am fully aware it was founded on Christian principles. I have always said that.

Not keen on the title of your subject mind. AA can't be a failure as such as there are millions of us in recovery. I would personally have just called it recovery thread so other ways etc. could be bought in. Eh you started it and I should have expected anything else :14:
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Do you understand the maths, KK?

If you have helped say 2 million people, with a 5% success rate, then with other treatments you could have helped as many as 20 million. There are 18 million people out there worse off. Does that really sit well?

To me, it appears you do it because it makes you feel better. You don't really care about the people that come and see you, but more want to feel you are doing something. It's a very common problem amongst some very well meaning people, but it does do harm to others.
 
I am going to put some links up too, which say differently: This is a polarized subject, I know. This are factual stuff

The first link is how AA structure works:

http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/About-AA/AA-Structure-in-Great-Britain

Professor Chick (Edinburgh) Specialist in addiction
Ash Kahn pyschologist (Midlands)

Both of these are members of our trustee board

Alcoholism the facts Taken from the Oxford University Press (chapter 17 is about AA)
Is an assistant professor in pharmacology on dept of psychiatry.

More will follow
 
http://www.aa.org/pages/en_US/alcoholics-anonymous

Here is a link to the Big Book. Chapter 4, We agnostics is the one relevant here, I defy anyone to read it and tell me there is no religious aspect. That you can remain a complete atheist and still finish the program.

It is downright dangerous.

 
HeathfieldRoad1874 - 2/3/2015 13:28

kefkat - 2/3/2015 13:22


Your answer to that is when I have stopped laughing (and I didn't read this post) was ofcourse I have. That is the main stay of our faith.

I actually set up the Big Book study in York 9 years ago which is the strongest meet in York.

You can't just take a few pages or lines of a book and that's it. I know the book is old fashioned. I know when the book was written.

I am fully aware it was founded on Christian principles. I have always said that.

Not keen on the title of your subject mind. AA can't be a failure as such as there are millions of us in recovery. I would personally have just called it recovery thread so other ways etc. could be bought in. Eh you started it and I should have expected anything else :14:
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Do you understand the maths, KK?

If you have helped say 2 million people, with a 5% success rate, then with other treatments you could have helped as many as 20 million. There are 18 million people out there worse off. Does that really sit well?

To me, it appears you do it because it makes you feel better. You don't really care about the people that come and see you, but more want to feel you are doing something. It's a very common problem amongst some very well meaning people, but it does do harm to others.
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Yes I do and has I said and the 5% you state in AA recovery is better than being 20 million, instead of 18 million.

LOL ofcourse I care. If I didn't I would have done what alot do and walk away from AA once they were well enough (though many do go back to drink)

Yet it may seem as if I don't care. Why do you think that?. I am detached with compassion from what I do. If I hadn't learnt how to be detached with compassion I would be stark way round the bend by now.

It is heartbreaking when people don't get well, or for whatever reason don't want too. Like a nurse or a Dr we learn to detach with compassion.

Um you asked about what training we have. Well me I am a trained counselor/adviser and god damn I do have the experience too.

This is why we say we deal with alcoholism from our own experiences. We most certainly advise people to go outside for therapy and the like. That is not what we are there for. Other agencies have there place, as I have already said
 
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