A question of morals part 2

  • Thread starter Villan Of The North
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Villan Of The North

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Ok, so the first thread was aimed at makinh a point about the current situation in Palestine, this one is related but far less clear imo.

You are walking near a trolley-car track when you notice five people tied to it in a row. The next instant, you see a trolley hurtling toward them, out of control. A signal lever is within your reach; if you pull it, you can divert the runaway trolley down a side track, saving the five — but killing another person, who is tied to that spur. What do you do? Most people say they would pull the lever: Better that one person should die instead of five.

Now, a different scenario. You are on a footbridge overlooking the track, where five people are tied down and the trolley is rushing toward them. There is no spur this time, but near you on the bridge is a chubby man. If you heave him over the side, he will fall on the track and his bulk will stop the trolley. He will die in the process. What do you do? (We presume your own body is too svelte to stop the trolley, should you be considering noble self-sacrifice.)


What would you do?

 
Surely these days most people would just get their phone out and video the incident !?

Like the different angle of the same one person dying, one just a lever, the other a physical act of killing the person yourself.

Logic says you would save the five but not sure logic comes I to play whilst in the middle of such a thing.
 
Villan Of The North - 8/8/2014 09:37

Ok, so the first thread was aimed at makinh a point about the current situation in Palestine, this one is related but far less clear imo.

You are walking near a trolley-car track when you notice five people tied to it in a row. The next instant, you see a trolley hurtling toward them, out of control. A signal lever is within your reach; if you pull it, you can divert the runaway trolley down a side track, saving the five — but killing another person, who is tied to that spur. What do you do? Most people say they would pull the lever: Better that one person should die instead of five.

Now, a different scenario. You are on a footbridge overlooking the track, where five people are tied down and the trolley is rushing toward them. There is no spur this time, but near you on the bridge is a chubby man. If you heave him over the side, he will fall on the track and his bulk will stop the trolley. He will die in the process. What do you do? (We presume your own body is too svelte to stop the trolley, should you be considering noble self-sacrifice.)


What would you do?
Click to expand...

A Chubby man you say? Well, that's an easy choice. Throw him under the Trolley. We hate fatties here!!!!
 
Just to pint out, I'm asking the question but I can take no credit for it, this is based on a thought experiment proposed by philosopher Phillipa Foot in 1967 and has been the subject of debate and been further developed by several well regarded philosophers since.
 
HeathfieldRoad1874 - 8/8/2014 10:46

Villan Of The North - 8/8/2014 09:37

Ok, so the first thread was aimed at makinh a point about the current situation in Palestine, this one is related but far less clear imo.

You are walking near a trolley-car track when you notice five people tied to it in a row. The next instant, you see a trolley hurtling toward them, out of control. A signal lever is within your reach; if you pull it, you can divert the runaway trolley down a side track, saving the five — but killing another person, who is tied to that spur. What do you do? Most people say they would pull the lever: Better that one person should die instead of five.

Now, a different scenario. You are on a footbridge overlooking the track, where five people are tied down and the trolley is rushing toward them. There is no spur this time, but near you on the bridge is a chubby man. If you heave him over the side, he will fall on the track and his bulk will stop the trolley. He will die in the process. What do you do? (We presume your own body is too svelte to stop the trolley, should you be considering noble self-sacrifice.)


What would you do?
Click to expand...

A Chubby man you say? Well, that's an easy choice. Throw him under the Trolley. We hate fatties here!!!!
Click to expand...

Do I get a last request before you give me the push?
 
Surely the food would actually help in this scenario?
 
LOL. Yeah, the speed you eat we'd still have time to push you.

What if a young Hitler was in the group of 5? Or the Chubby man would have gone on to find a cure for cancer?

If only there were a simple answer!!!!!!!
 
I take it you've heard/read about this one before Bob. I find the arguments and counter arguments fascinating.
 
No, I'm not familiar with it. I just know that things aren't always as clear as they seem. The Universe we live in is full of perverse random events that have massive effects. Just look at the formation of RNA billions of years ago.
 
HeathfieldRoad1874 - 8/8/2014 11:27
The Universe we live in is full of perverse random events that have massive effects. Just look at the formation of RNA billions of years ago.
Click to expand...

It never happened, just ask GT :3:


 
To read more about it just google "Would you kill the fat man?"
 
Villan Of The North - 8/8/2014 10:30

HeathfieldRoad1874 - 8/8/2014 11:27
The Universe we live in is full of perverse random events that have massive effects. Just look at the formation of RNA billions of years ago.
Click to expand...

It never happened, just ask GT :3:
Click to expand...

LOL. I'm hoping the Rosetta spacecraft might prove it did. Now, wouldn't that be something!!!
 
I'vve not heard of the Roetta spacecraft, care to enlighten me?
 
It's the one currently orbiting a Comet for the first time in our history. A probe should touch down soon. One of the aims is to determine if the building blocks of life arrived here on a Comet.

Whatever it gives us, it is an amazing achievement.
 
HeathfieldRoad1874 - 8/8/2014 10:52

One of the aims is to determine if the building blocks of life arrived here on a Comet.
Click to expand...


I thought that one had been answered.

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/A/AbioticSynthesis.html

Molecules from outer space?

The Murchison Meteorite

Representative amino acids found in the Murchison meteorite. Six of the amino acids (blue) are found in all living things, but the others (yellow) are not normally found in living matter here on earth. The same amino acids are produced in discharge experiments like Miller's.
Glycine Glutamic acid
Alanine Isovaline
Valine Norvaline
Proline N-methylalanine
Aspartic acid N-ethylglycine This meteorite, that fell near Murchison, Australia on 28 September 1969, turned out to contain a variety of organic molecules including:
purines and pyrimidines
polyols — compounds with hydroxyl groups on a backbone of 3 to 6 carbons such as glycerol and glyceric acid. Sugars are polyols.
the amino acids listed in this table. The amino acids and their relative proportions were quite similar to the products formed in Miller's experiments.
The question is: were these molecules simply terrestrial contaminants that got into the meteorite after it fell to earth?

Probably not:
Some of the samples were collected on the same day it fell and subsequently handled with great care to avoid contamination.
The polyols contained the isotopes carbon-13 and hydrogen-2 (deuterium) in greater amounts than found here on earth.
The samples lacked certain amino acids that are found in all earthly proteins.
Only L amino acids occur in earthly proteins, but the amino acids in the meteorite contain both D and L forms (although L forms were slightly more prevalent).
The ALH84001 meteorite

This meteorite arrived here from Mars. It contained a variety of organic molecules.

Furthermore, there is evidence that its interior never rose about 40° C during its fiery trip through the earth's atmosphere. Live bacteria could easily survive such a trip.

Link to a discussion of the possibility of life on Mars and more on the ALH84001 meteorite.
Organic molecules in interstellar space

Astronomers, using infrared spectroscopy, have identified a variety of organic molecules in interstellar space, including
methane (CH4),
methanol (CH3OH),
formaldehyde (HCHO),
cyanoacetylene (HC3N) (which in spark-discharge experiments is a precursor to the pyrimidine cytosine).
polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons
as well as such inorganic building blocks as carbon dioxide (CO2), carbon monoxide (CO), ammonia (NH3), hydrogen sulfide (H2S), and hydrogen cyanide (HCN).

Laboratory Synthesis of Organic Molecules Under Conditions Mimicking Outer Space

There have been several reports of producing amino acids and other organic molecules by taking a mixture of molecules known to be present in interstellar space such as:
ammonia (NH3)
carbon monoxide (CO)
methanol (CH3OH) and
water (H2O)
hydrogen cyanide (HCN)
and exposing it to a temperature close to that of space (near absolute zero)
intense ultraviolet (uv) radiation.
Whether or not the molecules that formed terrestrial life arrived here from space, there is little doubt that organic matter continuously rains down on the earth (estimated at 30 tons per day).

And more

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2009/left_hand_life.html


 
It's the accepted theory, Juan, but not proven beyond reasonable doubt. Rosetta may offer more evidence, and if actual RNA has formed already, then that pretty much covers it.

You know Science - it never stops!!!
 
Blackwood villa. I cried with laughter at your saw post.

Could I not throw something else onto the line instead of the fat man? Paul lambert? Or if a fat man would stop the trolley could I not try to throw stones onto the track to derail it?

If I throw the fat man off the bridge I will be done for murder as in the eyes of the law it is me who has committed the offence.

 
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