4-4-2 | Vital Football

4-4-2

jeffs right

Vital Football Hero
Keep hearing talk of us playing that way. Believe me we are not. We are just playing exactly the same 4-2-3-1 as last season but with players who are not good enough to play it at this level.
No sign of an Ellington Roberts partnership with Teale Mahon Bullard McCulloch Baines Jackson Breakin Eaden behind them.
No long balls to nowhere with that lot. Both Baines and Eaden could both push forward and do their defensive duties too.
if we are to go the 4-4-2 way then some old videos need to come out at Euxton. Sad thing is not one of our squad could get in that side. That is the level Royle must be looking to aspire to.
 
4-4-2 is not the modern way, how many teams actually play that formation for very long?
We played a form of it with Powell and Windass at times yesterday but not the same.
We are looking to stay in the division, not win it. We know we can't win it, anyone who thought we could challenge for promotion this season or next is living in cloud cuckoo land.
We are a small club, with a small budget in a big league and need to steady the ship by staying in the league for more than one season.
That is the only goal for this season, some people need to get used to it
 
We are looking to stay in the division, not win it. We know we can't win it, anyone who thought we could challenge for promotion this season or next is living in cloud cuckoo land.
We are a small club, with a small budget in a big league and need to steady the ship by staying in the league for more than one season.
That is the only goal for this season, some people need to get used to it

For once something I completely agree with.
 
4-4-2 is not the modern way, how many teams actually play that formation for very long?
We played a form of it with Powell and Windass at times yesterday but not the same.
We are looking to stay in the division, not win it. We know we can't win it, anyone who thought we could challenge for promotion this season or next is living in cloud cuckoo land.
We are a small club, with a small budget in a big league and need to steady the ship by staying in the league for more than one season.
That is the only goal for this season, some people need to get used to it
Perhaps as well for you that we don't play it then Kenny.
 
Why not bring the players back with the right way to play 4-4-2, i mean it worked 15 years ago so surely Roberts and Ellington would dominate now also....

4-4-2 with wingers playing on each touchline does not wark at the top level anymore(imo), winning the game centrally is more important than winning the battles around the cornerflags and getting crosses in toward your giant centertanks of strikers.
That is why we see a narrow midfield and the fullbacks as the attacking threat on the wings.
Atletico Madrid have had massive success with a 4-4-2 for several years now but look how the play compared with how it looked 15 years ago, the players are so much better skilled technically that leaving giant spaces centrally is a absolute no no. They play very narrow with the 4 in midfield.

Everyone has a taste and different opinon but i dont think the 4-4-2 that worked 15-20 years ago works in 2018 as good. But that is not to say that 4-4-2 is dead as some teams in Spain (where i think the best tactically and technical football is and have been played for years) have switched to a more Simeone style rather than take after Guardiola with his tiki taka.
Things evolve and change.
 
I know what you mean but my point on this wasn't about bringing this back for us, it was more remarking that what we played yesterday was a million miles away from 4-4-2 and to say the players out there struggle to play the 4-2-3-1 effectively.
 
The revival of 4-4-2 as a viable formation started back in the early 2010's and Bayern Munich adopting a version with Mario Mandzukic as the main target man and Thomas Müller drifting off of him. They managed to beat Barcelona 7-0 over two legs. Athletic Bilbao also despatched Barcelona playing it.

Arrigo Sacchi pioneered this modern day 4-4-2, with his AC Milan team from 1989 to 1991, with the team as a whole compact in defence, harmonised in such a way as to restrict space and make play predictable onto one side of the field.The entire team was expected to defend and to attack. Baresi, Costacurta, Tasotti and Maldini were encouraged to be the originators of attacks, from wherever they won the ball, as were the other players within his system. Rijkaard and Ancelotti would always be available, moving without the ball to supplant the attacks and to augment zones in defence. The concepts of third player running, whereby one player passed the ball into the feet of a teammate,who played to the second, for the first man to make a run beyond the second player and receive into space and underlapping runs of full backs, getting on the inside of a winger to receive the ball and advance forwards stemmed from here.

It always makes me laugh when a pundit lazily throws out zonal marking as an excuse - this team was the epitome of defending zones, try scoring against them!

Ancelotti took that 4-4-2 back to Milan, with Pirlo, Seedorf, Kaka and Gattuso. Diego Simeone repeats the feat today with his variation on Sacchi's model. Paradoxically, using the wide areas to press and the central area of the field to contain and then flooding forwards quickly.

The main reason 4-4-2 has had a rebirth is due to teams insisting on a slow build up from the back, a defensive midfield duo and the concept of latency and low risk formations such such as the 4-2-3-1. Players can see the passing lanes much more clearly, support play is built into it naturally and it offers a wide number of options when it comes to cycling the ball, movement off of it and defending is easier, you simply outnumber the opposition, or drop deep and pack out the field. With 4-4-2, especially as Sacchi/Simeone/Ranieri/Ancelotti have it, players must work. Hard. Players must be ready to sacrifice and there's no hiding places.

Some may say that 4-4-2 is not effective any more. My point is this - systems of play are still only as good as the players playing in it, their preparation and their understanding. Sarri, Mourinho, Guardiola have all used a bastardised 4-4-2; at Napoli, Inter and Bayern respectively.

The more things change, the more they stay the same; soon we might see a team break out the W-M formation.


The way I see it, we have played the 4-4-1-1 variation of the 4-4-2, Powell as the deep lying forward. For some reason, Cook has pushed the wide players back, but what I find puzzling is that the full backs aren't going beyond these deeper widemen as much, nor are the wide players coming inside to squeeze the opposition. I'd like Cook to revert to the 4-2-3-1 that the players are comfortable with and for the more positive, forward thinking approach to return.
 
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Good post from Soccerates - i agree nothing wrong with 4-4-2 in itself it's all about how you play it and using players that are suited to it.

The issue is very much our current version of 4-4-2 is not being played very well and we dont have players particularly suited to it either.

We were pretty good in our usual 4-2-3-1 with the double pivot and aggressive full backs keeping the ball on the deck and attacking. I dont see why we've abandoned that as it worked and replaced it with something that doesn't.

I was really impressed with Leeds 3-3-1-3 i think that was the next tactic you'll see many teams try to replicate.
 
Bielsa has been playing that way for years and years; he did it with Argentina, it's grown a new wrinkle at Leeds United, a lot more fluidity of movement than what was usually done with his style of play.

I could see us utilising a 4-4-2. Walton in goal, James, Kipre, Dunkley, Robinson; Windass, Powell, Morsy, Jacobs; Grigg, Garner.

Windass and Jacobs would be encouraged to work both inside and further forward, almost creating a 4-2-2-2. Grigg's improved work rate alongside Garner would be interesting. Powell and Morsy would have to work to strike a balance between creativity and aggressive behaviour. James and Robinson would be encouraged to take on the role of being a more complete full back, crossing early, pressing inside to out, tucking in narrowly when the ball is in the opposite side of the field. It wouldn't be something that you just threw in halfway through the season though.
 
you can play what formation you like if the players are not good enough doesnt matter and we are clearly not good enough But the thing is are there three teams that will finish bellow us

It depends on which version of Wigan we see over the rest of the season the one that is brave and attacks or the cowardly one that plays for a 0-0 at home to Reading.

This Warren Joyce part 2 stuff Cooks been doing lately will definitely see us relegated despite there being some horrendous sides in this league.
 
Don`t get hung up on formations lets start worrying when we are going to start sticking the ball in the back of the net that is my worry
Win nothing with 0
 
It depends on which version of Wigan we see over the rest of the season the one that is brave and attacks or the cowardly one that plays for a 0-0 at home to Reading.

This Warren Joyce part 2 stuff Cooks been doing lately will definitely see us relegated despite there being some horrendous sides in this league.

The last 15 minutes or so were a throwback 2 years, but we created enough chances in the first half to have won comfortably, so I don't think we are back in the depths of WFJ.
 
I'm with T' Chet on this one. All this bollocks about us playing for a draw, and time wasting. OK, maybe right at the death, rather than potentially chuck everything away by conceding a sloppy goal, the team were told to hang on to what they'd got. Maybe. But even if that were so, given the bench and substitutions, it was clear that PC was williling to go all out to win the game...... except right at the death maybe.

In balance, I was puzzled why Connolly got on instead of Evans, and Mcmanaman obviously struggles to convince PC of his worth, but imagine the reaction if we'd have gone gung ho in the hast few minutes, conceded a goal, and then lost the game.

It doesn't need much analysis. The meltdown would have been monumental.

Let's see what happens wi' t' Rroverrrs.
 
Difficult one Moonay. I think the performance overall was poor, though certainly first half reading were worse and we should have led. The last 20 minutes fear kicked in and we were second best. There was only one team likely to nick it and it wasn't us. Given they are a direct rival I can see why we didn't want to lose to them. However it was a home fixture and we should have taken that risk given we had the personnel to do so, but the substitutions were very negative. It's a bit of an odd one as I don't think that's Cooks style. Hopefully a tone hasn't been set as I think these run of fixtures are crucial to staying out of the shit. My gut instinct is those teams we play will be much braver and we'll be neck deep in it come the new year.