Jamie states what we all know... | Vital Football

Jamie states what we all know...

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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...-lost-big-six-status-now-managers-must-prove/

It's a dog fight back to Top 4...



Arsenal and Spurs have lost 'big six' status - now their managers must prove they can win it back
Plus: Why defeat at Chelsea would signal danger for Manchester City

Jamie Carragher 24 September 2021 • 9:59am



This Sunday's North London derby is a reminder that the idea of a ‘big six’ in English football is outdated. We now have a big four.
The worry for Arsenal and Tottenham Hotspur fans is how far they have fallen behind the title contenders and how long they will be on the outside looking in.
Although it is early in the season, the clubs’ meeting this weekend already feels massive for both managers, Mikel Arteta and Nuno Espirito Santo.
It would be premature to suggest jobs are immediately on the line. What is at stake is something more important to their fans - hope and trust.

Nothing builds or erodes that like a derby win or defeat.

After the first few league games, no one is sure what this season has in store for Arsenal and Spurs; whether they are moving forwards or in danger of drifting even further away.
After a terrible start, Arsenal have some momentum. Another victory will change the mood at The Emirates after the losses to Chelsea and Manchester City, restoring much-needed calm.
The reaction to their heavy defeats was due to their manner rather than the fact Arsenal were beaten. The bigger picture of the Arteta reign is not as bad as often portrayed.

It is worth emphasising that between Boxing Day and the end of last season, only the Manchester clubs collected more league points than Arsenal. Last season they had the third-best defensive record in the Premier League, but Arteta knows finishing 8th is not good enough for Arsenal.

He took over in difficult circumstances, inheriting an ageing and overpaid squad in 2019, so there was always going to be pain to endure before more consistent results and performances.
It is too soon to shrug off the excellence of Arteta’s early work when he delivered the FA Cup within a few months. It was not just that he won a major trophy. He defeated Manchester City and Chelsea at Wembley to do so.



Arteta led Arsenal to an FA Cup victory after just a few months in charge Credit: GETTY IMAGES
This summer’s spending spree has given Arteta the chance to make significant strides with younger, more dynamic players, getting his own team on the pitch after a much-needed overhaul.

Arteta has been a bit unlucky so far given the circumstances around the opening day defeat at Brentford - short of players due to Covid and unsure the game would go ahead until five hours before kick-off - and an unforgiving fixture list against the Champions League finalists.
For me, the stakes are already as high for Nuno as Arteta, even though he is only a few months into the Spurs job.

Last week’s first-half display against Chelsea was like Tottenham under Mauricio Pochettino; exciting, pressing high and on the front foot. What happened in the second half undermined that excellence. Chelsea are a superior team and showed their class when provoked into a response, underlining how big the gap is between the top four and the rest.

Nuno needs to persist with a more progressive approach to win his new supporters’ over. The defensive style of his Wolverhampton Wanderers team will not be tolerated at Spurs. He will be seen as ‘Mourinho-lite’ and would be wise to remember the reaction to Jose’s negative tactics in last March’s North London derby. It was not quite the final straw, but he was sacked five weeks later.

Competing for the Premier League is off the table for Arsenal and Spurs for the next two or three years. Champions League qualification is a long shot this year. The same clubs have occupied those positions for the last two seasons and it would be a huge shock if they do not do so again.

The minimum for Arsenal and Spurs is an improvement on last year’s performance, a style in tune with what the fans expect, and the foundation for a further step forward in a year’s time. A clearer judgement on the progress of both managers can be made at the end of this season.

There were many times as a player I knew within a matter of games there was no prospect of winning the league, so the target was points as well as positioning. Last season, Spurs collected 62 and Arsenal 61. Seventy is generally a guarantee of being in the race for the top four.

more here: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...-lost-big-six-status-now-managers-must-prove/

......The North London clubs are in a battle with each other to see who will be ready first to break back into the top four. We may have a clearer idea on Sunday.
 
Yup we are not top 6 material...now we have to rebuild and prove ourselves again...just the way it is.
 
It's a bit too early to jump to the conclusion that there isn't a top 6 that we aren't a part of. We've been in the top 6 teams since 08/09 up until last season.

There's a stronger argument that there isn't a top 4 any more but rather a top 2 of City and Liverpool given the gap that Liverpool & City have put on teams recently (Chelsea will do the same this year to make it a 3).
For example, we were closer to 2nd place United last year than they were to City in first. The previous year, the top 2 were 15pts clear of 3rd. 25 points the year before.

Also, how can you write an article discussing if there is a top6 or top 4 without evening mentioning the teams that are catching us and removing the idea of their being a top 6.

Arsenal have consistently finished lower than 6th recently and 7 to 10 are closing the gap to the non league contending teams. That's the real story here.
 
As it is I only see a Top 4, and us n the Goons are not in that 4, simple as that, the better rest incl us fight for 2 positions 5th n 6th.
 
It's a bit too early to jump to the conclusion that there isn't a top 6 that we aren't a part of. We've been in the top 6 teams since 08/09 up until last season.

There's a stronger argument that there isn't a top 4 any more but rather a top 2 of City and Liverpool given the gap that Liverpool & City have put on teams recently (Chelsea will do the same this year to make it a 3).
For example, we were closer to 2nd place United last year than they were to City in first. The previous year, the top 2 were 15pts clear of 3rd. 25 points the year before.

Also, how can you write an article discussing if there is a top6 or top 4 without evening mentioning the teams that are catching us and removing the idea of their being a top 6.

Arsenal have consistently finished lower than 6th recently and 7 to 10 are closing the gap to the non league contending teams. That's the real story here.

Good points all...obviously too early to really say...but we sure as heck haven't looked like top 6 material for over a season now.

As for Arsenal...they are fully grasping a rebuild and flooding their ranks with youth...damn near a complete overhaul. As much as I hate saying it...they are doing it right...patient, steady improvement. (not sure if Arteta will survive....but I think he is the right guy for that job)...oh yeah and he isn't afraid to bench his so called stars...we could learn a lesson there!!!

For us, we need to follow suit...there are only a few teams that can simply splash the cash every year and reload....and we are not one of them. Until we grasp that we need to move on from some players and actually start the rebuild fully...we will be on the outside looking in...and yes I predict outside the top 6.
 
Good points all...obviously too early to really say...but we sure as heck haven't looked like top 6 material for over a season now.

As for Arsenal...they are fully grasping a rebuild and flooding their ranks with youth...damn near a complete overhaul. As much as I hate saying it...they are doing it right...patient, steady improvement. (not sure if Arteta will survive....but I think he is the right guy for that job)...oh yeah and he isn't afraid to bench his so called stars...we could learn a lesson there!!!

For us, we need to follow suit...there are only a few teams that can simply splash the cash every year and reload....and we are not one of them. Until we grasp that we need to move on from some players and actually start the rebuild fully...we will be on the outside looking in...and yes I predict outside the top 6.

Yep, I think we made huge progress in the summer on your last part. Offloading Toby, Rose, Sissoko, Aurier, Lamela, Hart, Gazza etc in one summer was no mean feat. We're not quite feeling the benefit yet, but we will do. Let's hope we can keep churning the squad into the next 2 windows.

Whether we like it or not we're in a cluster with Gooners, Leicester, Hammers and perhaps even Brighton this season. We won't be in top 4 contention, especially if we remain in all cups.

No point being pessimistic though. Enjoy the boxing tonight. More money into our transfer kitty.
 
On paper I don't believe that there are any teams outside of the top four who are stronger than ourselves. Trouble is that by virtue of their transfer fees, past records playing elsewhere other than in the PL, and the performances they put in at international level, we have a lot of players who are better on paper than they are on the pitch. We probably will finish top six, and certainly should. If we don't hopefully the Club will recognise that we have made purchases that have quite simply failed, and question the wisdom of continually inflating the squad with players unproven in the Premiership.
 
On paper I don't believe that there are any teams outside of the top four who are stronger than ourselves. Trouble is that by virtue of their transfer fees, past records playing elsewhere other than in the PL, and the performances they put in at international level, we have a lot of players who are better on paper than they are on the pitch. We probably will finish top six, and certainly should. If we don't hopefully the Club will recognise that we have made purchases that have quite simply failed, and question the wisdom of continually inflating the squad with players unproven in the Premiership.

If we don't finish in the top 6, it won't be down to the newbies. It will be down to the 90% of players that are already at the club, and perhaps some key injuries. Just take Tanguy and Kane. Look at the BS we have had to put up from them already this season. They're hardly helping a kid like Gil to assimilate to his new surroundings with their self importance.
 
If we don't finish in the top 6, it won't be down to the newbies. It will be down to the 90% of players that are already at the club, and perhaps some key injuries. Just take Tanguy and Kane. Look at the BS we have had to put up from them already this season. They're hardly helping a kid like Gil to assimilate to his new surroundings with their self importance.
My previous comment re imported purchases that have thus far failed was more directed at purchases made since the CL final, Ndombele, Lo Celso and Bergwijn being good examples, than new signings who have not yet had the opportunity to prove their value to us. I hope I'm not saying the same about them in two years time.
 
My previous comment re imported purchases that have thus far failed was more directed at purchases made since the CL final, Ndombele, Lo Celso and Bergwijn being good examples, than new signings who have not yet had the opportunity to prove their value to us. I hope I'm not saying the same about them in two years time.

Good points...and after I went back and thought about all of our signing over the last few windows...and WOW we really have whiffed horribly bad so far. You are right some have yet to prove themselves...but after a few seasons we should start showing at least some progress. In my opinion below...our recent transfer windows....less than stellar.

FAILS:
-Onomah - signed in 15/16
-CCV - brought up from U23 in 16/17
-n'Koudou -Transfer fee 16/17 for $12M
-Lopez - who the shit is this we got on loan.
-Wanyama - Transfer fee ~$16M in 16/17
-Janssen - Transfer fee ~$24M in 16/17
-Sissoko - Transfer fee ~38M in 16/17
-Aurier - Transfer fee ~27M in 17/18
-Foyth - Transfer fee ~14M in 17/18
-KWP - Brought up from U23 in 17/18
-Sessegnon - Transfer fee ~29M in 19/20
-Doherty - Transfer fee ~18M in 20/21

PARTIAL FAILS:
-Winks - Brought up from U23 in 16/17
-Llorente - Transfer fee ~16M in 17/18
-Berg - Transfer fee ~33M in 19/20
-Reggie - Transfer fee ~33M in 20/21

TBD:
-Sanchez - 17/18 (transfer fee ~46M)
-GLC - Loan fee ~17M (then transfer fee ~35M) in 19/20
-Clarke - transfer fee ~12M in 19/20
-Rodon - Transfer fee ~13M in 20/21
-Royal - Transfer fee ~27M in 21/22
-Sarr - Transfer fee ~18M


WINS:
-Lucas - 17/18 (transfer fee ~31M)
-Skipp - 18/19 (U23) so far so good
-NDom - 19/20 (transfer fee ~66M)
-Tang - 19/20 U23
-PEH - Transfer fee ~18M in 20/21
-Gill - Transfer fee ~27M (so far so good) in 21/22
-Romero - Loan transfer (so far so good in 21/22
 
Good points...and after I went back and thought about all of our signing over the last few windows...and WOW we really have whiffed horribly bad so far. You are right some have yet to prove themselves...but after a few seasons we should start showing at least some progress. In my opinion below...our recent transfer windows....less than stellar.

FAILS:
-Onomah - signed in 15/16
-CCV - brought up from U23 in 16/17
-n'Koudou -Transfer fee 16/17 for $12M
-Lopez - who the shit is this we got on loan.
-Wanyama - Transfer fee ~$16M in 16/17
-Janssen - Transfer fee ~$24M in 16/17
-Sissoko - Transfer fee ~38M in 16/17
-Aurier - Transfer fee ~27M in 17/18
-Foyth - Transfer fee ~14M in 17/18
-KWP - Brought up from U23 in 17/18
-Sessegnon - Transfer fee ~29M in 19/20
-Doherty - Transfer fee ~18M in 20/21

PARTIAL FAILS:
-Winks - Brought up from U23 in 16/17
-Llorente - Transfer fee ~16M in 17/18
-Berg - Transfer fee ~33M in 19/20
-Reggie - Transfer fee ~33M in 20/21

TBD:
-Sanchez - 17/18 (transfer fee ~46M)
-GLC - Loan fee ~17M (then transfer fee ~35M) in 19/20
-Clarke - transfer fee ~12M in 19/20
-Rodon - Transfer fee ~13M in 20/21
-Royal - Transfer fee ~27M in 21/22
-Sarr - Transfer fee ~18M


WINS:
-Lucas - 17/18 (transfer fee ~31M)
-Skipp - 18/19 (U23) so far so good
-NDom - 19/20 (transfer fee ~66M)
-Tang - 19/20 U23
-PEH - Transfer fee ~18M in 20/21
-Gill - Transfer fee ~27M (so far so good) in 21/22
-Romero - Loan transfer (so far so good in 21/22
Pretty much confirms my thoughts. For me it is all about how long the partials and TBD's are given before they are considered fails, to my mind we've got too many fails that have had enough time and opportunity, but we remain undecided about.
 
Good points...and after I went back and thought about all of our signing over the last few windows...and WOW we really have whiffed horribly bad so far. You are right some have yet to prove themselves...but after a few seasons we should start showing at least some progress. In my opinion below...our recent transfer windows....less than stellar.

FAILS:
-Onomah - signed in 15/16
-CCV - brought up from U23 in 16/17
-n'Koudou -Transfer fee 16/17 for $12M
-Lopez - who the shit is this we got on loan.
-Wanyama - Transfer fee ~$16M in 16/17
-Janssen - Transfer fee ~$24M in 16/17
-Sissoko - Transfer fee ~38M in 16/17
-Aurier - Transfer fee ~27M in 17/18
-Foyth - Transfer fee ~14M in 17/18
-KWP - Brought up from U23 in 17/18
-Sessegnon - Transfer fee ~29M in 19/20
-Doherty - Transfer fee ~18M in 20/21

PARTIAL FAILS:
-Winks - Brought up from U23 in 16/17
-Llorente - Transfer fee ~16M in 17/18
-Berg - Transfer fee ~33M in 19/20
-Reggie - Transfer fee ~33M in 20/21

TBD:
-Sanchez - 17/18 (transfer fee ~46M)
-GLC - Loan fee ~17M (then transfer fee ~35M) in 19/20
-Clarke - transfer fee ~12M in 19/20
-Rodon - Transfer fee ~13M in 20/21
-Royal - Transfer fee ~27M in 21/22
-Sarr - Transfer fee ~18M


WINS:
-Lucas - 17/18 (transfer fee ~31M)
-Skipp - 18/19 (U23) so far so good
-NDom - 19/20 (transfer fee ~66M)
-Tang - 19/20 U23
-PEH - Transfer fee ~18M in 20/21
-Gill - Transfer fee ~27M (so far so good) in 21/22
-Romero - Loan transfer (so far so good in 21/22
Interesting to see Wanyama in your list of fails USA. He had that great first season but never really recovered from his injury the following season. I suppose he fails on longevity.
 
Good points...and after I went back and thought about all of our signing over the last few windows...and WOW we really have whiffed horribly bad so far. You are right some have yet to prove themselves...but after a few seasons we should start showing at least some progress. In my opinion below...our recent transfer windows....less than stellar.

FAILS:
-Onomah - signed in 15/16
-CCV - brought up from U23 in 16/17
-n'Koudou -Transfer fee 16/17 for $12M
-Lopez - who the shit is this we got on loan.
-Wanyama - Transfer fee ~$16M in 16/17
-Janssen - Transfer fee ~$24M in 16/17
-Sissoko - Transfer fee ~38M in 16/17
-Aurier - Transfer fee ~27M in 17/18
-Foyth - Transfer fee ~14M in 17/18
-KWP - Brought up from U23 in 17/18
-Sessegnon - Transfer fee ~29M in 19/20
-Doherty - Transfer fee ~18M in 20/21

PARTIAL FAILS:
-Winks - Brought up from U23 in 16/17
-Llorente - Transfer fee ~16M in 17/18
-Berg - Transfer fee ~33M in 19/20
-Reggie - Transfer fee ~33M in 20/21

TBD:
-Sanchez - 17/18 (transfer fee ~46M)
-GLC - Loan fee ~17M (then transfer fee ~35M) in 19/20
-Clarke - transfer fee ~12M in 19/20
-Rodon - Transfer fee ~13M in 20/21
-Royal - Transfer fee ~27M in 21/22
-Sarr - Transfer fee ~18M


WINS:
-Lucas - 17/18 (transfer fee ~31M)
-Skipp - 18/19 (U23) so far so good
-NDom - 19/20 (transfer fee ~66M)
-Tang - 19/20 U23
-PEH - Transfer fee ~18M in 20/21
-Gill - Transfer fee ~27M (so far so good) in 21/22
-Romero - Loan transfer (so far so good in 21/22

I can't see how Lucas is a win with only one decent return in the 4+ seasons and one great semi final.
Tanguy has done nothing he at the moment is a massive loss as we would struggle to give him away.
Gil and Romero are TBD as so far they have not shown anything to say they can handle the prem.
Reg I would class as better than Gil, Romero, Hojbjerg and Tanguy.

We are not a top 6 team. We have top 4 facilities. We have a average team that has been bailed out by Son and Kane's goals and assists and Hugo's saves. Yes a few seasons ago we were a top team but we have sold players and never replaced them with the quality required. We had chances top be up there with Man city and Liverpool as we were consistent for 4-5 seasons. Poor recruitment and a chairman not willing to pay on players the same as other top teams lead to us losing out on players and losing players. Also the poor appointment from levy of Jose has set us back year's.
 
Interesting to see Wanyama in your list of fails USA. He had that great first season but never really recovered from his injury the following season. I suppose he fails on longevity.

Not really judging character...just club success or failures in our transfer window business. Wanyama could have been a huge success for us...buy like you say injuries really killed him. So yeah only one good season...guess fail on longevity.
 
I can't see how Lucas is a win with only one decent return in the 4+ seasons and one great semi final.
Tanguy has done nothing he at the moment is a massive loss as we would struggle to give him away.
Gil and Romero are TBD as so far they have not shown anything to say they can handle the prem.
Reg I would class as better than Gil, Romero, Hojbjerg and Tanguy.

We are not a top 6 team. We have top 4 facilities. We have a average team that has been bailed out by Son and Kane's goals and assists and Hugo's saves. Yes a few seasons ago we were a top team but we have sold players and never replaced them with the quality required. We had chances top be up there with Man city and Liverpool as we were consistent for 4-5 seasons. Poor recruitment and a chairman not willing to pay on players the same as other top teams lead to us losing out on players and losing players. Also the poor appointment from levy of Jose has set us back year's.

Good points. Just my opinions, your list is a bit different....but overall in your last paragraph we are of like mind.
 
Interesting to see Wanyama in your list of fails USA. He had that great first season but never really recovered from his injury the following season. I suppose he fails on longevity.
I'm inclined to agree, he had a spell where he was very much a key player in a successful team at the time. Even Sissoko was a proper contributor toward our reaching a CL final, making ten appearances in the CL that season, which was by far his best at Spurs. We've signed a few more recently who won't be matching that, neither in terms of the success of the team, or games played.
 
I'm inclined to agree, he had a spell where he was very much a key player in a successful team at the time. Even Sissoko was a proper contributor toward our reaching a CL final, making ten appearances in the CL that season, which was by far his best at Spurs. We've signed a few more recently who won't be matching that, neither in terms of the success of the team, or games played.

LOL we have had our fair share of One hit Wonders!!! We need more long term solid players...year in and year out dependable types.