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Derby County

Looks like Wycombe are doing a Barnsley

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58622433

Can't say I blame them in this instance. If the EFL had had the balls to face up to the issue and stand by their rules and decisions Wycombe would still be in the Championship. I think the way the EFL works needs an overhaul given the way it has dealt with Derby and Sheff Wed over the past couple of seasons.
 
Can't say I blame them in this instance. If the EFL had had the balls to face up to the issue and stand by their rules and decisions Wycombe would still be in the Championship. I think the way the EFL works needs an overhaul given the way it has dealt with Derby and Sheff Wed over the past couple of seasons.

Wycombe should've had legal action field before the season even started.

The EFL said that if Derby didn't file their accounts correctly before the season started Wycombe would take their place in the Championship and all the money that goes with it. Derby didn't do it and they still were allowed to stay in the Championship.

The big difference between Barnsley and Wycombe is the Wigan owner fucked Wigan not Barnsley, while Derby's owner fucked Wycombe. I hope Wycombe take the EFL and Derby to the cleaners to be honest.

I feel sorry for the Derby fans - this isn't their fault they didn't try and cheat, but at the same time i feel no sympathy for the club itself after what it's got away with in the last couple of years. But if they were punished correctly when this first happened we wouldn't be here - Derby trying to evade punishment for so long and the EFL's inability /unwillingness to punish them has got us to a point where the club may get liquidated when all that should've happened was a points deduction and maybe relegation that were both set backs but not fatal .
 
Wycombe should've had legal action field before the season even started.

The EFL said that if Derby didn't file their accounts correctly before the season started Wycombe would take their place in the Championship and all the money that goes with it. Derby didn't do it and they still were allowed to stay in the Championship.

The big difference between Barnsley and Wycombe is the Wigan owner fucked Wigan not Barnsley, while Derby's owner fucked Wycombe. I hope Wycombe take the EFL and Derby to the cleaners to be honest.

I feel sorry for the Derby fans - this isn't their fault they didn't try and cheat, but at the same time i feel no sympathy for the club itself after what it's got away with in the last couple of years. But if they were punished correctly when this first happened we wouldn't be here - Derby trying to evade punishment for so long and the EFL's inability /unwillingness to punish them has got us to a point where the club may get liquidated when all that should've happened was a points deduction and maybe relegation that were both set backs but not fatal .

As I said if they had had the balls to apply their own rules and given the punishment out when it was due all this could have been avoided and the club would have been easier to save.
 
It should be pointed out that it's not the EFL who dish out the punishment but the Independent Disciplinary Commission/League Panel.
And the EFL have appealed virtually every ruling they've made until the last one where it was decided there were insufficient grounds to appeal against the IDC findings & punishment - that possibility of the EFL appealing was what would have stopped Derby playing in the Championship and not the re-submission of accounts.
There was a deadline given of August 17th for the re-submission of accounts that was extended by a week by the EFL after "constructive discussions" and Derby filed further information by that extended deadline. But there was never a deadline to submit before the start of the season or they'd be relegated
Its these new submissions that are behind the previous reports of them receiving 9-12pnt deduction for breaching FFP. Derby are still insisting their accounting is fair so the discussions are to try & stop more lengthy hearings & appeals
All the decisions took so long as it was a complicated case & the final decision wasn't reached until July of this year because the EFL made 3 separate appeals (& Middlesbrough made 1 as well) that all required separate hearings by the independent panel
 
Derby officially entered administration today and have been deducted 12 points with immediate effect by the EFL. That takes them from 12th place to rock bottom of the table on -2 points, nine adrift from safety.

My thoughts are with the innocent staffers and I hope fans being back in stadiums will serve to rescue their jobs.
 
Derby officially entered administration today and have been deducted 12 points with immediate effect by the EFL. That takes them from 12th place to rock bottom of the table on -2 points, nine adrift from safety.

My thoughts are with the innocent staffers and I hope fans being back in stadiums will serve to rescue their jobs.

Horrible times for both employee's and fans wondering what the future holds for them.
It gives you that sickly feeling in your stomach that only those who have been through something similar can describe.
 
Only small pleasure being Begbies didn't get the admin gig

Just read the BBC report on the Derby County situation, and near the end of the article after positive comments from the firm taking over the administration, there was this qoute from Krasner -

Derby are now facing the prospect of relegation to League One and insolvency expert, and former Leeds United chairman, Gerald Krasner, told BBC Derby: "If they don't sell the club, then it's liquidation and expulsion like Bury and clubs before them. That would be a great shame with a history like Derby's."

Nowt like looking on the bight side the fat twat. I am glad the poor Derby fans don't have that fucker to deal with, what a horrible **** he is.
 
I see Gibson is continuing his efforts to sue Derby over their ffp breaches. It’s like picking over a carcass. Same with Wycombe threatening to jump on a similar bandwagon. It’s the efl they should be doing for dragging their feet over these issues. They already need to repay 60 odd million in debt, so how they can fund legal fees as well to fight these claims I’m not sure.

Unfortunately I don’t think Derby fans are aware of the pain to come - just as we weren’t. Given the debt and the fact they don’t even own Pride Park it’s a hell of job to sell the club, even one of Derby’s size. Since the Al Jazeera documentary and the Efl seemingly more diligent in applying the owners and directors test since our unscrupulous owners I suspect it’s now harder to secure ownership of a club. Best of luck to them.

I do wonder if there will now be a chain of clubs heading the same way. Reading are facing deductions; Sheff Wed are still in trouble; Fleetwood chairman is facing a trial re fraud charges and his energy business can’t currently be in a good place; Oldham are in trouble; things aren’t great at Rochdale and I suspect there are other clubs hanging on. Bizarrely we are now probably in a better place than most.
 
I see Gibson is continuing his efforts to sue Derby over their ffp breaches. It’s like picking over a carcass. Same with Wycombe threatening to jump on a similar bandwagon. It’s the efl they should be doing for dragging their feet over these issues. They already need to repay 60 odd million in debt, so how they can fund legal fees as well to fight these claims I’m not sure.

Unfortunately I don’t think Derby fans are aware of the pain to come - just as we weren’t. Given the debt and the fact they don’t even own Pride Park it’s a hell of job to sell the club, even one of Derby’s size. Since the Al Jazeera documentary and the Efl seemingly more diligent in applying the owners and directors test since our unscrupulous owners I suspect it’s now harder to secure ownership of a club. Best of luck to them.

I do wonder if there will now be a chain of clubs heading the same way. Reading are facing deductions; Sheff Wed are still in trouble; Fleetwood chairman is facing a trial re fraud charges and his energy business can’t currently be in a good place; Oldham are in trouble; things aren’t great at Rochdale and I suspect there are other clubs hanging on. Bizarrely we are now probably in a better place than most.

Think your right MiW re a chain of clubs ready to fold....as I said a while back during our admin..there will be a house of cards effect where when one club goes bump a fair few will follow but nothing will be done until it happens to a 'big' (prem) club then & only then will the relevant associations do something. As big a club as Derby are they're not even a dot on Sky Sports / BBC / Media radar.....but say Liverpool / Utd etc filed for admin it would be a catastrophe for them n something would be done.
 
I'm still undecided whether we were unlucky or lucky to go into administration when we did. It's strange because with no fans allowed in grounds at the time we didn't need to fund policing, catering stewarding etc . Obviously we didn't want administration at all but I cant help feeling if it had to happen it happened at the right time. Derby are still facing all these costs and yes of course crowds being back bring in much needed revenue but we appear to have become a much stronger more stable club than before the Krays tried to murder the club. I'm not sure if Derby will come out of this as good as we have even with their massive fanbase providing the lifeline of regular inco.e. like I said I'm undecided.
 
I'm still undecided whether we were unlucky or lucky to go into administration when we did. It's strange because with no fans allowed in grounds at the time we didn't need to fund policing, catering stewarding etc . Obviously we didn't want administration at all but I cant help feeling if it had to happen it happened at the right time. Derby are still facing all these costs and yes of course crowds being back bring in much needed revenue but we appear to have become a much stronger more stable club than before the Krays tried to murder the club. I'm not sure if Derby will come out of this as good as we have even with their massive fanbase providing the lifeline of regular inco.e. like I said I'm undecided.

Personally I am in the camp of not having been in admin.

Had we not had that experience we would probably have still been a championship side with players capable of pushing on into the PL. I think most of us agree it was a poor decision to place us into admin by the chinese crooks as it made the sale of the club harder and had they played on to the end of the season they could have recouped their losses by selling one or two players before selling the club on.
 
I'm still undecided whether we were unlucky or lucky to go into administration when we did. It's strange because with no fans allowed in grounds at the time we didn't need to fund policing, catering stewarding etc . Obviously we didn't want administration at all but I cant help feeling if it had to happen it happened at the right time. Derby are still facing all these costs and yes of course crowds being back bring in much needed revenue but we appear to have become a much stronger more stable club than before the Krays tried to murder the club. I'm not sure if Derby will come out of this as good as we have even with their massive fanbase providing the lifeline of regular inco.e. like I said I'm undecided.

As you say, timing plays a huge part and it's just one of the differences in the clubs situations. Even ignoring the different ways admin came about - we knew our punishment would be 12 points and a relegation. Our issue was paying off debts, reducing the wage bill and finding a buyer. We were only a month from the transfer window reopening and were able to offload academy players in the mean time. Derby's punishment is likely to drag on, possibly in to next season. They're months away from off loading players who I suspect are on higher wages and have far greater amounts than we did to pay back on remaining transfer fees. Ultimately our appeal to the EFL was £500k blown, but Derby are now facing a couple of court dates. We also had saleable assets such as Euxton and we appealed to buyers due to the low debt and cheap stadium. Despite their size, Derby will be a much tougher sell.

The similarity is the pain to the fans, community and 2 awful decisions by terrible owners. The owner at Derby has dragged this out to the worst possible time. I agree that if it "had to happen" to us then it probably happened at the most manageable time, but it didn't have to happen at all. That still smarts and the joyous way we've come out of it can make you forget how awful those 9 months were
 
Just read the BBC report on the Derby County situation, and near the end of the article after positive comments from the firm taking over the administration, there was this qoute from Krasner -

Derby are now facing the prospect of relegation to League One and insolvency expert, and former Leeds United chairman, Gerald Krasner, told BBC Derby: "If they don't sell the club, then it's liquidation and expulsion like Bury and clubs before them. That would be a great shame with a history like Derby's."

Nowt like looking on the bight side the fat twat. I am glad the poor Derby fans don't have that fucker to deal with, what a horrible **** he is.
Maybe he's learnt his lesson from our administration.
Him and Stanley got absolutely pilloried for sugar coating our situation last year.

I can't believe the vast majority of our fan base actually believed we were going to get "market value" for our out-going players.

So incredibly naive.
 
I'm still undecided whether we were unlucky or lucky to go into administration when we did. It's strange because with no fans allowed in grounds at the time we didn't need to fund policing, catering stewarding etc . Obviously we didn't want administration at all but I cant help feeling if it had to happen it happened at the right time. Derby are still facing all these costs and yes of course crowds being back bring in much needed revenue but we appear to have become a much stronger more stable club than before the Krays tried to murder the club. I'm not sure if Derby will come out of this as good as we have even with their massive fanbase providing the lifeline of regular inco.e. like I said I'm undecided.

I see where you're coming from but, whilst it's never a good time to go into admin, I don't think ours came at the right time at all.
Yes we didn't have to pay for police costs etc.. but we had virtually no income streams at all. If I remember rightly the only income the club had was either from the sale of stuff in the club shop or from those cardboard cut out things we could buy to get put up in the stadium.
You compare that to Derby County who will have 26,000(ish) punters paying £25-30 to get in & then buy all the goodies in the stadium.
So even after laying off 75 members of staff, the only way Latics could fund salary payments & football creditors was by flogging players. Derby will still have to lay people off no doubt but it'll be less & they'll have to flog less players & be able to negotiate higher fees for them coz they have other income streams to fall back on.

On the plus side for them is the Derby name, the big crowds etc.. but on the downside they have far bigger & unmanageable debts and a stadium that they don't even own reducing a new buyers income streams or meaning they'll have to fork out on top of the club's purchase price to get hold of it - although I have a suspicion that as the stadium sale was only done to bring them within FFP that Morris will "gift" the stadium back to any potential new owners.
There's also the question of what kind if security that Dell investments has over the club in return for the money that they've lent. I imagine that a group like that will have attached loads of conditions meaning they were covered if this situation ever happened & that they wouldn't be left only being able to recoup 25p in the £ for what they've lent out
 
Question the fans need to ask : Why is he putting the Club in admin? He's reputed to be worth £500m. Is he asset stripping? Is the company that owns the club in administration too?
 
Personally I am in the camp of not having been in admin.

Had we not had that experience we would probably have still been a championship side with players capable of pushing on into the PL. I think most of us agree it was a poor decision to place us into admin by the chinese crooks as it made the sale of the club harder and had they played on to the end of the season they could have recouped their losses by selling one or two players before selling the club on.

Precisely….it made no sense to try and fold us when we were literally guaranteed retention of our Championship status.
The price they could have got for both the players and the club itself just weeks later would have been multiples of the relative pittances achieved.
It made absolutely no sense.
Unless of course there were other reasons driving them ….things that were very likely (in the vernacular) ‘as dodgy as f**k’

We’ll never get to know and I’m coming round to the view that I’d sooner not find out.

Utter bastards
 
Nobody wanted administration and relegation and to lose over 70 staff members was a disaster. However I get to wondering had we not gone into administration and had to play out the season with all our top earners and other staff still having to be paid, all the other costs that come from competing at our level and without any gate receipts what long term damage would our fabulous club have suffered. This is where im baffled. Would we now be better off still in the championship with all our players still here and still under control of the Krays or have we dodged a bullet because of what happened.
 
I see where you're coming from but, whilst it's never a good time to go into admin, I don't think ours came at the right time at all.
Yes we didn't have to pay for police costs etc.. but we had virtually no income streams at all. If I remember rightly the only income the club had was either from the sale of stuff in the club shop or from those cardboard cut out things we could buy to get put up in the stadium.
You compare that to Derby County who will have 26,000(ish) punters paying £25-30 to get in & then buy all the goodies in the stadium.
So even after laying off 75 members of staff, the only way Latics could fund salary payments & football creditors was by flogging players. Derby will still have to lay people off no doubt but it'll be less & they'll have to flog less players & be able to negotiate higher fees for them coz they have other income streams to fall back on.

On the plus side for them is the Derby name, the big crowds etc.. but on the downside they have far bigger & unmanageable debts and a stadium that they don't even own reducing a new buyers income streams or meaning they'll have to fork out on top of the club's purchase price to get hold of it - although I have a suspicion that as the stadium sale was only done to bring them within FFP that Morris will "gift" the stadium back to any potential new owners.
There's also the question of what kind if security that Dell investments has over the club in return for the money that they've lent. I imagine that a group like that will have attached loads of conditions meaning they were covered if this situation ever happened & that they wouldn't be left only being able to recoup 25p in the £ for what they've lent out
I have no idea how big Derby's attendances are currently but I'd be willing to bet it isn't 26k.

Just checked and their most recent attendance was 20k against Stoke. You'd imagine well over half of those fans were season ticket holders, whose money has already been swallowed up by the club. That leaves not many fans actually paying for tickets. So whatever cash they are generating on a match day won't be very high at all in reality and certainly not enough to pay their eye watering wage bill.

So unless they own any land or buildings they can flog like a training ground/car park etc, selling players will be the only way Derby can generate the amount of money needed to pay wages with immediate effect and they aren't allowed to do that for another three months. They better hope that the players are willing to accept wage deferrals or they are in big trouble.

It's been a long time since I've seen begging buckets at a football ground, I suspect they'll out in force at Derby's next home game.
 
I have no idea how big Derby's attendances are currently but I'd be willing to bet it isn't 26k.

Just checked and their most recent attendance was 20k against Stoke. You'd imagine well over half of those fans were season ticket holders, whose money has already been swallowed up by the club. That leaves not many fans actually paying for tickets. So whatever cash they are generating on a match day won't be very high at all in reality and certainly not enough to pay their eye watering wage bill.

So unless they own any land or buildings they can flog like a training ground/car park etc, selling players will be the only way Derby can generate the amount of money needed to pay wages with immediate effect and they aren't allowed to do that for another three months. They better hope that the players are willing to accept wage deferrals or they are in big trouble.

It's been a long time since I've seen begging buckets at a football ground, I suspect they'll out in force at Derby's next home game.

I'm going off their averages pre-covid which were 26.7k, 26.8k, 27.1k, 29k & 29.7k for the previous 5 years. Lower crowds this season are (I think) due to some issue with their ticket office not being open since Covid & them only having a print at home facility (season tickets haven't even been sent out yet)
You're right in that a large chunk of those crowds even at this season's reduced levels will be ST holders but even if say only 5k of them are pay on the day its still 5000 people paying an average of about 24 quid which works out at £120 grand plus all the refreshments that those 20k+ people will be buying (if they spend an average of a fiver that's another £100 grand
No idea what their player wage bill is & no doubt its astronomical but pulling in £300k just from crowds every other week is better than the nowt Latics were getting through the gate. And like I said previously they'll also have sponsorship & corporate income coming in. We had virtually nothing coming in

I agree that the situation appears dire but having money coming in, even with the increased expenses the crowds bring is better than having zero income & still having the expenditure of wages