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General Football thread

Well yes but that comes back to how much responsibility a manager takes. Whilst the players have been disgracefully bad, the reason managers are highly regarded and sought after is because they ensure that their players play to their ability.

It’s why Billy Davies is still to this day highly regarded by some on this forum - he often got a lot from some average players. Why can’t Hughton get more from a talented group?
How were they performing before he arrived? I don’t disagree that he hasn’t lived up to what I hoped he could bring but the reality is that a number of key players just did not perform at all.

It’s an easy thing to blame the manager but the players deserve every bit of grief they get as there are less than a handful who can hold their heads up this season.
 
How were they performing before he arrived? I don’t disagree that he hasn’t lived up to what I hoped he could bring but the reality is that a number of key players just did not perform at all.

It’s an easy thing to blame the manager but the players deserve every bit of grief they get as there are less than a handful who can hold their heads up this season.

I totally agree and as I says, it’s the fine line between where responsibility lies, but for me, if a manager doesn’t take responsibility for performances, what difference does it make who you appoint?

Look at Chelsea - highly talented squad that under achieved under Lampard. Thomas Tuchel has absolutely transformed them into a champions league final team overnight. Not therefore suggesting that Hughton should have had us promoted this season, but he should have done far more with this group of players given he only took over 4 games in. There hasn’t been a single spell of enjoyment as a fan this season and we haven’t improved in any department and he’s been in charge 7 months.

I don’t want him sacked and think he deserves a season with his own players, but he should take some responsibility with the players - it’s been collectively bad from both players and staff.
 
I totally agree and as I says, it’s the fine line between where responsibility lies, but for me, if a manager doesn’t take responsibility for performances, what difference does it make who you appoint?

Look at Chelsea - highly talented squad that under achieved under Lampard. Thomas Tuchel has absolutely transformed them into a champions league final team overnight. Not therefore suggesting that Hughton should have had us promoted this season, but he should have done far more with this group of players given he only took over 4 games in. There hasn’t been a single spell of enjoyment as a fan this season and we haven’t improved in any department and he’s been in charge 7 months.

I don’t want him sacked and think he deserves a season with his own players, but he should take some responsibility with the players - it’s been collectively bad from both players and staff.
Agree with all of that

The poor performances this season extend beyond just the players. We never got above poor all season. We ended up with the same number of points as when we stayed up on goal difference.
 
I hope next season we are a tad more adventurous and don't look to keep it tight when we are a goal down, this season has to be one of the worst I can remember for entertainment. He took over early and the confidence was shot but he never got us going all season, couple of runs being unbeaten with a smattering of wins kept us up but those runs were not fun just felt like grinding out every point we could and with the players he had we should have been doing much better. He's got a full summer now to do what he can, then see how we go after 10 or so games, he's not a new manager now he's got to deliver and if we are still boring and hardly picking up points I can't see the fans putting up with it.
 
I totally agree and as I says, it’s the fine line between where responsibility lies, but for me, if a manager doesn’t take responsibility for performances, what difference does it make who you appoint?

Look at Chelsea - highly talented squad that under achieved under Lampard. Thomas Tuchel has absolutely transformed them into a champions league final team overnight. Not therefore suggesting that Hughton should have had us promoted this season, but he should have done far more with this group of players given he only took over 4 games in. There hasn’t been a single spell of enjoyment as a fan this season and we haven’t improved in any department and he’s been in charge 7 months.

I don’t want him sacked and think he deserves a season with his own players, but he should take some responsibility with the players - it’s been collectively bad from both players and staff.
I think he has and he will take responsibility because that’s who he is. For me though I think we were going to be relegated had Hughton not come in so while it has been an unpleasant season with him it would have been worse without.

As for Lampard, it was criminal what he failed to do with that squad...
 
I think he has and he will take responsibility because that’s who he is. For me though I think we were going to be relegated had Hughton not come in so while it has been an unpleasant season with him it would have been worse without.

As for Lampard, it was criminal what he failed to do with that squad...

Sorry Bash but I disagree with that. I’m not sure why you’re certain that Hughton saved us from relegation. We were awful but it was hardly middle of February, rock bottom with a bad team and an embargo. He had more than enough to turn it around - he had time, players and even transfers and he only just had enough in what was an awful league. We should have had a big problem points wise but got away with it.

I especially don’t get why Lampard was criminally bad but Hughton ‘somehow kept us up’?
 
Sorry Bash but I disagree with that. I’m not sure why you’re certain that Hughton saved us from relegation. We were awful but it was hardly middle of February, rock bottom with a bad team and an embargo. He had more than enough to turn it around - he had time, players and even transfers and he only just had enough in what was an awful league. We should have had a big problem points wise but got away with it.

I especially don’t get why Lampard was criminally bad but Hughton ‘somehow kept us up’?
Look at how last season ended. Then look how we started this season. We weren’t scoring and were conceding. We were losing games and didn’t know where the next win was coming from.

I am not saying he ‘saved us from relegation’ in the terms you mention but you must have been watching different games to me if you thought that wasn’t the likely destination under SL. With that squad, playing that way, we were in serious trouble.

Lampard had one of the best squads in the league and had no idea what to do with it. The fact that the turnaround was so dramatic shows how badly Lampard had been doing.
 
Well yes but that comes back to how much responsibility a manager takes. Whilst the players have been disgracefully bad, the reason managers are highly regarded and sought after is because they ensure that their players play to their ability.

It’s why Billy Davies is still to this day highly regarded by some on this forum - he often got a lot from some average players. Why can’t Hughton get more from a talented group?

We could shrink him and employ his cousin?
 
Look at how last season ended. Then look how we started this season. We weren’t scoring and were conceding. We were losing games and didn’t know where the next win was coming from.

I am not saying he ‘saved us from relegation’ in the terms you mention but you must have been watching different games to me if you thought that wasn’t the likely destination under SL. With that squad, playing that way, we were in serious trouble.

Lampard had one of the best squads in the league and had no idea what to do with it. The fact that the turnaround was so dramatic shows how badly Lampard had been doing.

I don’t disagree that Lamouchi was in free fall and a change was needed, but I don’t think any half decent manager should have had us in a relegation battle and I’d expect a half decent manager to have shown some improvement in some areas and Hughton simply hasn’t. As Pope pointed out, we’ve accumulated as many points as we did when we survived on goal difference - that’s awful really.

I’d also suggest that on paper, our squad was easily a top 6 team - we technically improved on a side that missed out on the play offs on goal difference, so it should have been better.

Like I say, this isn’t about hounding Hughton out and exonerating any blame on the players who were shameful, but the manager is just as responsible for awful performance after awful and performance and even if results were the same, I’d have at least expected us to look good in some department. What’s Hughton really improved in this team?
 
I don’t disagree that Lamouchi was in free fall and a change was needed, but I don’t think any half decent manager should have had us in a relegation battle and I’d expect a half decent manager to have shown some improvement in some areas and Hughton simply hasn’t. As Pope pointed out, we’ve accumulated as many points as we did when we survived on goal difference - that’s awful really.

I’d also suggest that on paper, our squad was easily a top 6 team - we technically improved on a side that missed out on the play offs on goal difference, so it should have been better.

Like I say, this isn’t about hounding Hughton out and exonerating any blame on the players who were shameful, but the manager is just as responsible for awful performance after awful and performance and even if results were the same, I’d have at least expected us to look good in some department. What’s Hughton really improved in this team?
The problem is that Hughton couldn’t get anything from a lot of the players and he is more than half decent at this level and knew a number of the players.

Freeman, Knockaert and Arter were disastrous and didn’t actually look capable of doing anything. Grabban struggled and Taylor just wasn’t good enough. I am not sure what you think he could have done in that instance.

At the back we were pretty solid and had one of the best records in the division but with so many of our attacking players either on the way down or just not performing full stop we were never going to do much.

I don’t see Hughton as blameless but at the same time I don’t think we could have done much better and certainly think we could have ended up worse off.
 
The problem is that Hughton couldn’t get anything from a lot of the players and he is more than half decent at this level and knew a number of the players.

Freeman, Knockaert and Arter were disastrous and didn’t actually look capable of doing anything. Grabban struggled and Taylor just wasn’t good enough. I am not sure what you think he could have done in that instance.

At the back we were pretty solid and had one of the best records in the division but with so many of our attacking players either on the way down or just not performing full stop we were never going to do much.

I don’t see Hughton as blameless but at the same time I don’t think we could have done much better and certainly think we could have ended up worse off.

But Hughton signed Knockaert. One or two players not being up for it is one thing, but your whole attacking team being inept following years of being good elswhere is something you have to level at the players AND the manager.

It’s his job to make them play together. Otherwise surely every manager who isn’t a success could just say “ah well all 11 of them were crap, what was I supposed to do?”

Is Hughton merely being afforded an excuse because of his CV? His CV has earned him the right to make things better, but it doesn’t mean he gets credit for keeping us in the division. I don’t think a single one of us thought we were ever really relegation fodder after 4 games if we changed to any manager, but we sure as hell looked like we were.
 
But Hughton signed Knockaert. One or two players not being up for it is one thing, but your whole attacking team being inept following years of being good elswhere is something you have to level at the players AND the manager.

It’s his job to make them play together. Otherwise surely every manager who isn’t a success could just say “ah well all 11 of them were crap, what was I supposed to do?”

Is Hughton merely being afforded an excuse because of his CV? His CV has earned him the right to make things better, but it doesn’t mean he gets credit for keeping us in the division. I don’t think a single one of us thought we were ever really relegation fodder after 4 games if we changed to any manager, but we sure as hell looked like we were.

Under normal circumstances i would agree with you but covid obviously fucked everybody in slightly different ways and makes the season just gone very difficult to call. I think we have to give them the benefit of the doubt although i think everyone can agree we under performed. Imo its all about the window and how we come out next season.
 
Under normal circumstances i would agree with you but covid obviously fucked everybody in slightly different ways and makes the season just gone very difficult to call. I think we have to give them the benefit of the doubt although i think everyone can agree we under performed. Imo its all about the window and how we come out next season.

Agree with that. It’s water under the bridge. Onwards and upwards etc. I just refuse to suggest for one minute that we should credit hughton for keeping us in the division. He and the players underperformed as you say.
 
But Hughton signed Knockaert. One or two players not being up for it is one thing, but your whole attacking team being inept following years of being good elswhere is something you have to level at the players AND the manager.

It’s his job to make them play together. Otherwise surely every manager who isn’t a success could just say “ah well all 11 of them were crap, what was I supposed to do?”

Is Hughton merely being afforded an excuse because of his CV? His CV has earned him the right to make things better, but it doesn’t mean he gets credit for keeping us in the division. I don’t think a single one of us thought we were ever really relegation fodder after 4 games if we changed to any manager, but we sure as hell looked like we were.
Knockaert hadn’t played much, Freeman had a misdiagnosed injury and Arter was a cock. Lolley was at rock bottom but was slowly playing back into form, Grabban had a bad season and Taylor was shit.

I am not giving Hughton a free pass at all but when so many of your ‘best’ players don’t meet expectations then you are in trouble. Every time we got a result we hoped it was the start and that players would show what they could really do but we never managed to kick on and every player he tried didn’t seem to take the chance they were given.

For me that says that the squad was never as good as we thought/hoped. We will see the truth of it next season hopefully.

I am not ‘crediting’ Hughton with saving us either, just pointing out that there was a good chance we could have been relegated, particularly if we had gotten the manager choice wrong. Whether you disagree is up to you but for me our final league position would confirm it as a possibility.
 
Knockaert hadn’t played much, Freeman had a misdiagnosed injury and Arter was a cock. Lolley was at rock bottom but was slowly playing back into form, Grabban had a bad season and Taylor was shit.

I am not giving Hughton a free pass at all but when so many of your ‘best’ players don’t meet expectations then you are in trouble. Every time we got a result we hoped it was the start and that players would show what they could really do but we never managed to kick on and every player he tried didn’t seem to take the chance they were given.

For me that says that the squad was never as good as we thought/hoped. We will see the truth of it next season hopefully.

I am not ‘crediting’ Hughton with saving us either, just pointing out that there was a good chance we could have been relegated, particularly if we had gotten the manager choice wrong. Whether you disagree is up to you but for me our final league position would confirm it as a possibility.

Think we agree on a lot but see the manager situation differently, which is fine.

I hope he’s a success and i was a huge advocate of Hughton - underrated at Brighton and an excellent flexible manager. I just expected a lot more than we got and don’t believe a single player has got better under him. Big year ahead
 
Weird situation in the battle for 4th place in the Premier League. There are 3 teams trying to get in the top 4, and each of them have their final position entirely in their own hands (because Chelsea and Leicester play each other in the league). That doesn't happen very often.