Hartlepool

[Tarian]

And just out of interest, I thought I'd switch on the arch tool, and leftie liberal public schoolboy luvvie, James O'Brien on LBC, to see what his take on it is. Of course, the outcome was predictable. I only listened to five minutes of him discussing matters with a fellow posho leftie, and sycophant, and 90% of the discussion evolved around slating Boris and the Tories (to quote what O'Brien literally just said: "everyone one knows he (Boris) is a liar, but they still vote for him") and arrogantly ended with the conclusion that the Labour party needs people like them to explain the truths better to the working classes better (they actually said and agreed that between themselves).

Therein lies the problem for Labour and the Left. This sort of "talking down" attitude in the left wing press and media (whether O'Brien or the Guardian), as well as the Labour Party itself, is not going to solve Labour's problems and get people voting for them i.e. the attitude of it's the voters'/public's fault as they are wrong/stupid and just need things explained to them better (didn't we hear that with Brexit(?) and, in fact, O'Brien is still doing it daily now some five years after the vote - he clearly just won't accept things and move on...); such arrogance and failure to recognise the problem will do quite the opposite.

And O'Brien had a caller from the Midlands, who said he had been a Labour Member since 2002.

I think he had been campaigning....
Anyway, he said that most people are interested in:
- their home
- their job
- their SUV
- their holiday

They see Boris (and the Conservatives) as being more supportive of homes, jobs and holidays...
...and not so anti car.

Most do not recognise the ever increasing number of "victim" groups that Labour (and its media allies) keep promoting.

They see Boris (and the Conservatives) as being more supportive of homes, jobs and holidays...

I'd be inclined to think that Midland-Labour man also was less sympathetic to London-metro-media-wokeness....
...but I can't remember if he touched on that.

I sincerely hope that the Labour Party do not listen to Midlands-Labour man !

 

[LockdownLife]

If you're going for a promotion at work that requires an interview there are a couple of strategies you could go for:
1. Show and explain to your bosses why you're perfect for the role, what you'll do and why you'll do a great job.
2. Slag off your colleagues also going for the promotion in the hope you look better.

Which one do you think is more likely to land you the job?

 

[markinkent]

We talk about this a lot at work. On face value you would think that some of the things associated with Boris and the Tories would impact their popularity negatively e.g.

- Kids school meals / Marcus Rashford
- Cronyism with contracts for donors
- Bozos's flat
-Bozos and the American girl (not his infidelity but the use of public money)
- Let the bodies pile high comment


Thing is they clearly don't bother the majority of people. Is it simply that as a country we have become less bothered about the bigger society and more selfish and inward looking.

The Tories are focussed on being "popular" - Union Jacks everywhere and headlines of "send in the gunboats" plays to their targeted audience and is clearly popular with the electorate . Hartlepool was one of the higher leave voters in the referendum and its clear that the Tories rhetoric is lapped up their.

So for me I think its less of a question that Labour need to change but rather the country has shifted to populism and more right wing politics. I genuinely don't think that Labour will have a sniff of power until (or even If) the public get sick of the populist, Britannia rules the waves messaging from the Tories.

The bigger worry for me is that the Tories can be as sleazy as they like and a big chunk of the British population will say "that's not important, carry on".

 

[rambolerambole]

Labour is screwed. The Primrose hill set back in charge and inept as ever. Not as bad as the Corbynistas but only marginally better. membership of the party is basically the above two groups. Devoid of any contact with reality and only talk in echo chambers.

You still have members of a local Medway CLP who are running an active purge against anyone deemed to be a Blairite. Corbyn is not and never was a democratic socialist he is and always will be an Autocrat and those who follow him are no different. Only we know the right way and any disagreement will not be tolerated by us.

The polytechnic intelligencia with bullshit degrees in Humanities and Psychology couldn't organise a picnic because they be too busy appeasing the Corbynistas demanding everyone was Vegan.

Labour is dead until we get another Smith. I personally can't see one in the current ranks. At the moment I can't see myself voting for anybody for a long time and that is not a good state of affairs.

 

[bathnightattheminogu]

Contrary to what some on here seem to believe it wasn’t the lefties overwhelmingly voting to remain and the right voting for Brexit.
It was the left wing politicians who wanted to remain. The average working class voter voted for Brexit. A very important difference.
The result was that the Labour Party completely ignored the clear wishes of its own constituents and instead chose to adopt a attitude of we know better than you and you are all stupid.
Consequently you had masses of people who felt betrayed by the people they had elected to represent them in parliament.
People who had never voted Tory before did so.
The Labour Party never listened to them then and are not listening now.
This from a labour voter by the way.

 

[SteveTreacle]

We talk about this a lot at work. On face value you would think that some of the things associated with Boris and the Tories would impact their popularity negatively e.g.

- Kids school meals / Marcus Rashford
- Cronyism with contracts for donors
- Bozos's flat
-Bozos and the American girl (not his infidelity but the use of public money)
- Let the bodies pile high comment


Thing is they clearly don't bother the majority of people. Is it simply that as a country we have become less bothered about the bigger society and more selfish and inward looking.

The Tories are focussed on being "popular" - Union Jacks everywhere and headlines of "send in the gunboats" plays to their targeted audience and is clearly popular with the electorate . Hartlepool was one of the higher leave voters in the referendum and its clear that the Tories rhetoric is lapped up their.

So for me I think its less of a question that Labour need to change but rather the country has shifted to populism and more right wing politics. I genuinely don't think that Labour will have a sniff of power until (or even If) the public get sick of the populist, Britannia rules the waves messaging from the Tories.

The bigger worry for me is that the Tories can be as sleazy as they like and a big chunk of the British population will say "that's not important, carry on".

Well done for pretty much summing up the approach of my (and several other) post(s), which is suggesting reasons why Labour and the Left has lost so many votes and is not winning them back. It's this ingrained arrogance that the reason Labour are losing votes is nothing to do with them (and their desertion of the working classes and working class people's true concerns in favour if identity politics and political correctness), but because the whole country is selfish/stupid/wrong and somehow being fooled by those evil Tories. If you think and want the majority of the country to just change and starting drinking from the woke cup and convert to the current Labour Party, without them changing, you'll have a long wait!

 

[chris who]

The problem Labour appears to have is that its support is firmly based in two totally different camps .Starmer appears to be someone who is attempting to unite those forces thus far he has failed totally. Meanwhile the Tories have totally mopped up the Brexit vote.Unity is the only way Labour can achieve a victory.But there is no willingness to go down that route. Stay on the Corbyn type route and it is always going to be short of victory trying to grab the centre is the only way I believe they could win a election. Brexit rightly or wrongly is considered a vote winner for the Tories. As long as it appears that way to the masses any opposition leader will struggle. With a percentage switching sides because of Brexit and another percentage not supporting the labour leader whoever he or she is.Meanwhile the Tories have someone who appeals to the masses but being nothing to nobody and simply keeping his party United behind him regardless of the splits they have.It probably shows that the Tories will do anything to stay in power including sacrifice their principles. Politics is about persuading people that yours is the best way.The Tories have used the Brexit vote to basically follow the people. It is too late to follow for the other parties even if there was a willingness to do so.But the next year or so new issues might dominate the thoughts of the masses that's when the tide might turn in a new direction.

 

[SteveTreacle]

Contrary to what some on here seem to believe it wasn’t the lefties overwhelmingly voting to remain and the right voting for Brexit.
It was the left wing politicians who wanted to remain. The average working class voter voted for Brexit. A very important difference.
The result was that the Labour Party completely ignored the clear wishes of its own constituents and instead chose to adopt a attitude of we know better than you and you are all stupid.
Consequently you had masses of people who felt betrayed by the people they had elected to represent them in parliament.
People who had never voted Tory before did so.
The Labour Party never listened to them then and are not listening now.
This from a labour voter by the way.

Fair point. True left wingers and socialists have always destected the EU, in whatever guise it is - ultimately, it's one of the biggest capitalist projects of all-time and why it was and is supported by the vast majority of billionaires, big banks, big companies and big businesses

 

[chris who]

Contrary to what some on here seem to believe it wasn’t the lefties overwhelmingly voting to remain and the right voting for Brexit.
It was the left wing politicians who wanted to remain. The average working class voter voted for Brexit. A very important difference.
The result was that the Labour Party completely ignored the clear wishes of its own constituents and instead chose to adopt a attitude of we know better than you and you are all stupid.
Consequently you had masses of people who felt betrayed by the people they had elected to represent them in parliament.
People who had never voted Tory before did so.
The Labour Party never listened to them then and are not listening now.
This from a labour voter by the way.

Personally I prefer a politician to have a set of principles. Following something just because it is popular is not my way.It is popular to believe Brexit was a good thing. That doesn't make it the right thing to do .It is possibly popular to vote for Boris at present that doesn't make the right decision.

 

[jogills]

I don't expect any political party to get anyway near to representing the whole range of my opinions. That would be absurd under any system but under FPTP it's doubly so. I'm not over persuaded by statements claiming social class majorities for various positions either. Political parties exist to gain power, or at least share it. Many lines have been blurred in recent years and a decreasing number feel inextricably bound by old loyalties.

Be careful about ascribing views by voting intention. I have a sister, who has been a razor keen tory party member for over 60 years. She had solar panels installed on her roof a few years ago with no expectation of personal advantage but for environmental reasons. She hasn't run, or had access to a car for over 40 years and considers climate change the number one issue but has no truck with trendiness, or direct action. She'd vote to bring back hanging this afternoon. In some weird ways we have more in common regarding what needs doing than you might imagine.

 

[PhilK66]

If you're going for a promotion at work that requires an interview there are a couple of strategies you could go for:
1. Show and explain to your bosses why you're perfect for the role, what you'll do and why you'll do a great job.
2. Slag off your colleagues also going for the promotion in the hope you look better.

Which one do you think is more likely to land you the job?

The most sensible post so far on this thread. A basic tenet of marketing: stress the benefits of your "product" and don't slag off the rival product. Starmer, if he survives, needs to promote positive policies and what his party would do to make things better.

 

[markinkent]

Well done for pretty much summing up the approach of my (and several other) post(s), which is suggesting reasons why Labour and the Left has lost so many votes and is not winning them back. It's this ingrained arrogance that the reason Labour are losing votes is nothing to do with them (and their desertion of the working classes and working class people's true concerns in favour if identity politics and political correctness), but because the whole country is selfish/stupid/wrong and somehow being fooled by those evil Tories. If you think and want the majority of the country to just change and starting drinking from the woke cup and convert to the current Labour Party, without them changing, you'll have a long wait!

What would an attractive (to the bulk of the electorate) labour party look like ?

It seems that the bulk of the people in this country are more than happy with what the Tories are doing even despite what you would think would be the own goals I listed.

Makes you wonder whether a brand new party is required to challenge the Tories because I do agree that the previous (Corbyn) and current (Starmer) labour parties won't, aren't or can't.

 

[jokerman]

I'm not sure this job, house, car, holiday line is quite right. After all, the UK is living with the consequences of a vote where the Great and Good told the electorate that most of them would be worse off with Brexit and here's how, and a good chunk of the electorate looked them in the eye and said, I'm voting for it anyway. We might get further evidence of that from North Britain later today. There's more going on.

Joe nailed it for Labour with the problem of how to work for the left behind, left out, and, I would add, relatively new sources of Labour support and yet hang on to its traditional support. The Tories don't have that problem. For them, the left outs are encouragement to the rest of us, and any of the left outs themselves with cop on, to get on their bikes and find a way forward. There are no guarantees in this life and, yes, it could get really bad but the good news is, there actually is a way forward. They are vulnerable there.

No one serious wants to clobber capitalism anymore. All the arguments from Beijing to the US Mexican border are about how to get on the tiger, how firmly to sit on it, and in which direction to ride it. Tigers, of course, remain tigers. After an unfortunate interlude, Labour under Starmer is moving back into the mainstream political debate. I think he would make a very good and very British prime minister. Whether his party or the electorate will let him, however, is another matter. Johnson and Sturgeon have, in their different ways, what it takes to get to where they wanted to be. Starmer's public quality -the forensic stuff beloved of those who think politics is a rational business- is probably a turn off to many more people, and he has this way of looking like he's coming back from his brother's funeral or has fallen off the wagon again after yet another damn good try. He needs some dynamic attention-getting henchpersons around him to get anywhere, and I'm not sure the Labour Party produces those at the moment.

 

[rambolerambole]

Starmer is too far removed from reality and has been for such a long time he doesn't realise. The one thing the Blair Brown axis was merge a great realist in Brown with a great pragmatist in Blair.

Starmer has nobody he isn't a realist and he isn't a pragmatist he is an ideologue. The general public will not vote for ideologues no matter who they are and none of his team are up to it.

I did hold out some hope for Annalise Dodds but no sorry out of her depth. Thornberry is a buffoon the female Boris and the rest of his team are so faceless I can't remember most of them. Their only saving grace is the nowhere near as bad as Long-Bailey and Burgon.

 

[jogills]

As a footnote it's worth pointing out that Johnstone has taken his party to positions and actions that some are very uncomfortable with. Will he keep spending, or revert to more traditional balancing of the books. Remember sound money? That now dates you. He talks about intervention and an active state at every oppoprtunity and his greatest cheerleaders squirm and wait for a return to the true path. At some point all the newbies and some of the newer Brexiters will seek to control the operation. It's going to be fun whatever happens.

 

[Jerryattrick]

Labour is screwed. The Primrose hill set back in charge and inept as ever. Not as bad as the Corbynistas but only marginally better. membership of the party is basically the above two groups. Devoid of any contact with reality and only talk in echo chambers.

You still have members of a local Medway CLP who are running an active purge against anyone deemed to be a Blairite. Corbyn is not and never was a democratic socialist he is and always will be an Autocrat and those who follow him are no different. Only we know the right way and any disagreement will not be tolerated by us.

The polytechnic intelligencia with bullshit degrees in Humanities and Psychology couldn't organise a picnic because they be too busy appeasing the Corbynistas demanding everyone was Vegan.

Labour is dead until we get another Smith. I personally can't see one in the current ranks. At the moment I can't see myself voting for anybody for a long time and that is not a good state of affairs.

so psychology is a 'bullshit' degree!!!

 

[Jerryattrick]

Contrary to what some on here seem to believe it wasn’t the lefties overwhelmingly voting to remain and the right voting for Brexit.
It was the left wing politicians who wanted to remain. The average working class voter voted for Brexit. A very important difference.
The result was that the Labour Party completely ignored the clear wishes of its own constituents and instead chose to adopt a attitude of we know better than you and you are all stupid.
Consequently you had masses of people who felt betrayed by the people they had elected to represent them in parliament.
People who had never voted Tory before did so.
The Labour Party never listened to them then and are not listening now.
This from a labour voter by the way.

its the line taken by the media re the 'left' and people who think they are in the usa lol.
The true left are a dying breed and are not the woke gang that the media calls left. Woke sections of the party are in fact liberal fascists - more of a new religion.
The true left are more about the economics, ownership of power and actual equality of all. Most of these people voted brexit or saw no difference between remain and leave.

This latest election result is fairly irrelevant as we still have a brexit hangover and with covid and the vaccines its not exactly normal times.

 

[rambolerambole]

so psychology is a 'bullshit' degree!!!

Yes it is. Take a ticket for the dole queue. My niece has a masters in it currently working selling handbags in a department store. Self perpetuating course.

Too many kids being told they need degrees to jobs no ever needed a degree to do.

Nursing is not a degree. Primary education is not a degree Physiotherapy is not a degree yes you have to do courses to do the job but they are vocational.

We are piling debt onto kids who simply don't need the qualification they have for the job they have.

 

[Jerryattrick]

Ask the clever, southern, metropolitan, white, university "right-on" students that took over Labour and got Corbyn installed as leader.

Losing a Northern stronghold is a setback, but shouldn't distract from the main issues in society - Palestine and micro-aggressions towards people of colour

"Whoaaa, Jeremy Corrrrbyn...."

the votes for Corbyn economic policies and brexit were mainly from the old left and the unions block votes not the membership.
Starmer and thornbury etc pushed the membership towards remain. The labour supporters Israel MPs and the media then took their opportunity.

 

[valenciagill]

I did say on here last year that Populism is growing , and getting stronger all the time , but I was derided for my opinions ...