Hartlepool
- Thread starter PhilK66
- Start date
alex_farrells_left_peg
Vital Squad Member
I bet you'll get a "like" from Jeff Stelling if he ever reads this Phil.....
Maybe most people don't like socialism......
....when the answer to every problem is more government, more laws, more tax, more interference;
i.e. telling people how to behave, what to say and what to believe - yet pretending to be "liberal".
As much as some people thought that the Conservatives have over-done Lockdown, Labour always wanted more restrictions.
shotshy
Vital Champions League
Well, clearly at the moment, most people don’t like socialism given that the Tories have an 81 seat majority.
I think that this was only the third time that a governing party has won an opposition seat in forty odd years.
It does appear that most are not bothered about lying, sleaze & incompetence.
Baghdad_Rob
Vital 1st Team Regular
It is probably because people tend to hold a wider cynical view that most politicians are inherently sleazy liars out for themselves so you'd just be replacing one sleazy party for another.
But as for incompetence then arguably that isn't entirely true. Boris promised Brexit and we have left and we have a trade deal of note. The government have been competent in delivering Brexit even if you don't agree with the whole thing and the nitty gritty of the deal.
And there is the whole Covid thing. We might have started off subjectively worse than other countries but we are top 5 I think in vaccinating people as a % of population. Signing all those vaccine deals early are a sign of competence.
ThreeSixes
Vital Football Hero
Ask the clever, southern, metropolitan, white, university "right-on" students that took over Labour and got Corbyn installed as leader.
Losing a Northern stronghold is a setback, but shouldn't distract from the main issues in society - Palestine and micro-aggressions towards people of colour
"Whoaaa, Jeremy Corrrrbyn...."
LSB2
Vital Football Hero
Or maybe they remember the last labour government, where Tony Blair spent £100k on no.11, cash for questions, expenses fiddles etc...
SteveTreacle
Vital 1st Team Regular
I've seen this sort of comment all over social media today from Labour supporters/lefties/Tory haters and it goes back to the very heart of the problem that Labour and those lof the left have and it's precisely why they got thumped in Hartlepool, the last GE and the referendum (given that most, but not all of those on the left, voted remain and most, but not all, on the right voted leave). It's the whole the "voters/general public are stupid/wrong", "the Tories are terrible, sleezy, crooks, liars" blah, blah, blah, but the public/voters still vote for them anyway, rather than actually directing the focus of why Labour losing their vote share (particularly their traditional voters) at the root cause, which is the Labour party and in particular, it's culture.
Until Labour and the Left do that, they will keep losing elections. For me, it's simple. The Labour Party is not the party of the working classes any more. It's the party of middle class "do as I say, not as I do" metropolitan liberals, obsessed with and preaching about identity politics, diversity and race, when, quite simply, the vast majority of working class people in this country (typified by Hartlepool yesterday) aren't. For me, every time David Lammy goes on a race crusade, Sir Keir Starmer takes the knee, Emily Thornberry pompously dismisses working class white van man, Dawn Butler cries faux victimhood or Lisa Nandy bangs on about transphobia, it's more votes lost in the old red wall seats. The Labour party and its leaders need to realise that the obsessions, whether right or wrong, good intention or not, of its leaders and shadow cabinet in Westminser do not reflect what matters for working class people elsewhere in the country. And just dismissing those traditional Labour supporters as bigots, racist, stupid or wrong because they don't sing from the same hymn sheet as the Left (as the post I quote above does), ain't going to win them back any time soon.
GillsBluenose
Vital Football Hero
Hartlepool seat success stats since 2016 -
Jeremy Corbyn 2
Keir Starmer, (and his choice of remainer candidate in an area that voted 70% to leave, go figure) 0
And Keir said he, and only he, would accept responsibility for present and future results.
I think somebody might be smiling in to his beard....
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Baghdad_Rob
Vital 1st Team Regular
I did read an interesting opinion piece by a Guardian writer (of all people) who pointed out that there is a trend that renters tend to vote Labour while home owners tend to vote Tory. And then they pointed out that places like Hartlepool now have local populations where the majority own their own homes.
I think the South tends to look north and assume everyone lives in increasing poverty the further away you get from London but actually the majority of people are actually *sufficiently* comfortable that they are probably have more in common with traditional Tory voters in the south. The sticking point that the Tories had in trying to appeal to the traditional Labour heartlands is the stigma of voting Tory. I do wonder if what has happened in the last few years that losing the stigma will make it easier for the Tories in future to appeal to the Northern areas.
shotshy
Vital Champions League
I think you hit the nail on the head ST.
SteveTreacle
Vital 1st Team Regular
And just out of interest, I thought I'd switch on the arch tool, and leftie liberal public schoolboy luvvie, James O'Brien on LBC, to see what his take on it is. Of course, the outcome was predictable. I only listened to five minutes of him discussing matters with a fellow posho leftie, and sycophant, and 90% of the discussion evolved around slating Boris and the Tories (to quote what O'Brien literally just said: "everyone one knows he (Boris) is a liar, but they still vote for him") and arrogantly ended with the conclusion that the Labour party needs people like them to explain the truths better to the working classes better (they actually said and agreed that between themselves).
Therein lies the problem for Labour and the Left. This sort of "talking down" attitude in the left wing press and media (whether O'Brien or the Guardian), as well as the Labour Party itself, is not going to solve Labour's problems and get people voting for them i.e. the attitude of it's the voters'/public's fault as they are wrong/stupid and just need things explained to them better (didn't we hear that with Brexit(?) and, in fact, O'Brien is still doing it daily now some five years after the vote - he clearly just won't accept things and move on...); such arrogance and failure to recognise the problem will do quite the opposite.
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jogills
Vital Football Hero
Some good points all round and the route to an effective opposition is not via any well beaten path. My own difficulty is that I see a world where a sizeable minority have been jettisoned off aft and are not required on board. I see the reintegration and support of those peoples as one of my main aspirations for any political party I'd wish to support. Currently no one has fashioned any coalition of interests that includes the abandoned and the many elements, who feel they have a stake. Any attempt to appeal to, or advocate for the former alienates/frightens/aggravates the latter. The tories currently frame the debate and the opposition struggles to express itself without being identified as one of a number of old fashioned, unattractive, unpatriotic, or irrelevant stereotypes.
LSB2
Vital Football Hero
There's a few on here like that too lol
I'm afraid the British (well English) still have an ingrained Class attitude where the 'lower/middle' class still look up to an outdated concept of Monarchy, and look to the Upper Class as the natural rulers - it will take more than a decent opposition to get over the 'Empire' attitudes. Blair (post Thatcher) had a chance but blew it with adopting the sleaze and greed behaviour of the 'ruling class', which most people dismiss as 'that's just the way they are' excuse. The song line ' we get the government we deserve' was never more correct.
shotshy
Vital Champions League
Good point jogills.
Personally, I said months ago that current Labour just doesn’t appeal to it’s core traditional supporters.
I said that Starmer should have produced some kind of manifesto, defining what his Labour Party stands for.
People seem to like a three word slogan these days, so why not give them one.
Tories use three words and Labour come back at them with a cascade of words.
shotshy
Vital Champions League
That may well be how you see it mate, but I have found no evidence of the ordinary working person being overly subservient.
Maybe it’s just you.
LockdownLife
Vital Squad Member
The problem is Labour under Corbyn were hard to vote for cause every few weeks he would just declare a new service he wanted to nationalise and most people don't want nationalisation. Then even if you ignored nationalisation he was too far left for me or anyone I knew to vote for and I am in the age/demographics of those that generally loved him.
Starmer has ended the violent path Labour was taking to the left (at least publicly) which is great but now I don't really know what they stand for or what any of his policies are. He's a much better orator and seems much smarter than Corbyn but that's all well and good but there's no substance. Him and his cabinet/MPs seem too obsessed with the Tories and just blindly slagging them and anyone who votes for them off. The problem is it's predictable and doesn't play enough with voters.
I roll my eyes every time when I see the same predictable Labour response to a Tory decision. You can't just tell them they're wrong and sleazy the whole time - you need to actually say what you'd do in concrete plans if you were in charge. Or even, god forbid, agree with some decisions so your disagreements on other issues might hold some value.
Stop blaming sleazy Tories and sleazy voters and perhaps consider the fact that Labour as a party largely stand for nothing in the eyes of voters except being anti-Tory.
Starmer has ended the violent path Labour was taking to the left (at least publicly) which is great but now I don't really know what they stand for or what any of his policies are. He's a much better orator and seems much smarter than Corbyn but that's all well and good but there's no substance. Him and his cabinet/MPs seem too obsessed with the Tories and just blindly slagging them and anyone who votes for them off. The problem is it's predictable and doesn't play enough with voters.
I roll my eyes every time when I see the same predictable Labour response to a Tory decision. You can't just tell them they're wrong and sleazy the whole time - you need to actually say what you'd do in concrete plans if you were in charge. Or even, god forbid, agree with some decisions so your disagreements on other issues might hold some value.
Stop blaming sleazy Tories and sleazy voters and perhaps consider the fact that Labour as a party largely stand for nothing in the eyes of voters except being anti-Tory.
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GillsBluenose
Vital Football Hero
Interesting debate.
I didn't vote in the local elections yesterday as there was no party I could 100% support.
At a time when about 10% of the population still owns about 90% of the country's wealth, I still can not get over the feeling that the Tories are still a "Greed is Good" elitist party, not bothered about inequality.
I agree that Labour, particularly under Starmer, has become too PC obsessed and there are still too many arrogant remainers within the top echelon, who will never accept that they might not know better than the average voter. The candidate they put up for Hartepool is just one example of that attitude.
I always used to Vote Lib Dem at local elections as they are generally very fair and capable when in local government, but the arrogance of Jo Swinson at the last election, saying that they would just reverse the referendum result, makes them worse than Labour and Ed Davey has not denounced that stance.
I wonder how many Hartlepool voters would admit, if asked, that NONE of the parties actually really represents their interests and concerns.
I didn't vote in the local elections yesterday as there was no party I could 100% support.
At a time when about 10% of the population still owns about 90% of the country's wealth, I still can not get over the feeling that the Tories are still a "Greed is Good" elitist party, not bothered about inequality.
I agree that Labour, particularly under Starmer, has become too PC obsessed and there are still too many arrogant remainers within the top echelon, who will never accept that they might not know better than the average voter. The candidate they put up for Hartepool is just one example of that attitude.
I always used to Vote Lib Dem at local elections as they are generally very fair and capable when in local government, but the arrogance of Jo Swinson at the last election, saying that they would just reverse the referendum result, makes them worse than Labour and Ed Davey has not denounced that stance.
I wonder how many Hartlepool voters would admit, if asked, that NONE of the parties actually really represents their interests and concerns.
