#COVID19 | Page 776 | Vital Football

#COVID19

OK, so I probably didn't debate as constructively as I could yesterday. My apologies for that.

I think Covid stuff has gotten under my skin the last couple of days and my midset hasn't been super healthy.

I retract any allegations of racism, and accept they aren't (at least an overt) manifestation of such.

I do believe the legacy of Colonialism and Slavery are so closely intertwined to the extent that it's nigh on impossible to separate them out. However they are also distinct and I recognise that for some posters the distinction is much more apparent.

I do believe we continue to profit from both and others continue to suffer from both. For me that renders the argument sins of our fathers as redundant but I can see how others struggle to make the connection.

Reperations for slavery (and indeed Colonialism) are essentially a mia culpa, an acknowledgement that we profited from the misery of others, and continue to do so.

That won't undo the historical damage that Western nations have done but they can be a platform towards easing the pain that continues to linger and a step towards creating a more equal society.
Thank you for being constructive.

We are all racist, or at least racially biased somewhere. And I mean every human being on the planet. The starting point is accepting that and wanting to try to identify where it comes out. It is invariably linked to fear of something or other.

When you talk about reparations, what form would you envisage that taking?
 
I really have to disagree.
Slavery was a holocaust slowed down and perpetrated over 250-300 years. The anger is still there in the US, and there are still people in government who believe that slavery wasn't that bad.

I actually agree with most of your points individually, but those points don't tell the whole story.

Imagine how the US could be transformed socially and politically if reparations, in addition to social change, was government policy. Racism is the number 1 issue in the US and will be for generations to come... Unless someone does something about it.

Everyone's asking for unity in America but there's still this huge, unanswered injustice hanging over everybody's heads.
I fear that the US would absolutely erupt if "white" dollars were seen to be handed out indiscriminately into black hands. That is not necessarily a reason not to do it of course.

I object to the use of the term holocaust as well. It is a very poor use of wording and not a good comparison to make, at all. The Holocaust was one specific event. You are refering to a genocide. The slave trade killed lots of people but was not a genocide either.

There are extremely inherent problems with the idea of reparations logistically.

1) any amount you offer is seen as the total the nation is willing to give in mitigation of the suffering of ancestors. Absolutely any amount offered is inherently insulting; you cannot monetise nor place a value on a life or on suffering. Whatever amount is offered, groups are automatically going to say "so this is what my ancestor's lives and suffering were worth???"

When you think about it, offering compensation like that is an extremely "white" attitude- it is effectively the same monetising of life that led to the slave trade in the first place.

2) how do you decide who gets it? People who have spent generations in poverty don't tend to be able to keep very clear family trees. People who are already very wealthy are well known for their ability to make theirs up. There would be a huge middle class advantage in any scheme.

That doesn't even take account of the accuracy of the records. How easily can you prove your ancestor was a slave?

You inevitably get tension between AA who get compensation and those unable to prove they are due it.

3) Why this generation? Why would this generation be the "lucky" one to get the restitution for their ancestors pain? Why not the generation alive in 2050? Or in the 1960's?

Now, if you wanted to compensate people for the segregation of the 1950s and 60s I would agree with that; many who directly experienced it are alive. But who in all the generations is most worthy of compensation for events 150 years ago?

There are loads more logistical issues
 
Because of my views on other things you are taking everything I said out of context. The killings were wrong , but set in an era of different morals , poorer education etc. as Pope has said. There were colonials there before us. As I've said before, everyone looks at these things as clear cut, but the point I was trying to make was that the majority of the soldiers were Indian. It wasn't a case , from what little I've read of the British (alone) fighting the Indians. Various colonial armies supported by different Indian kingdoms fought each other. The number of troops we had there couldn't possibly have ruled India without the support of Indian soldiers.

Indian soldiers working for the british were called sepoys and were the overwhelming majority of the british forces in india.
 
Thank you for being constructive.

We are all racist, or at least racially biased somewhere. And I mean every human being on the planet. The starting point is accepting that and wanting to try to identify where it comes out. It is invariably linked to fear of something or other.

When you talk about reparations, what form would you envisage that taking?

I genuinely do like calculating the inflation adjusted value of a mule and 40 acres. For context that was the reparations agreed upon by the US government to slaves and then very quickly rescinded and brushed under the carpet.

I appreciate the US is different to the UK in a number of ways historically and not least in the amount of available land so that might not be practical/expensive.

There are a few other formulas that have been put forward but I don't actually think the amount is that important (it might be to others) - it's the symbolism of acknowledging our role and debt and saying that as a society we're sorry and going to try to be better.
 
I fear that the US would absolutely erupt if "white" dollars were seen to be handed out indiscriminately into black hands. That is not necessarily a reason not to do it of course.

I object to the use of the term holocaust as well. It is a very poor use of wording and not a good comparison to make, at all. The Holocaust was one specific event. You are refering to a genocide. The slave trade killed lots of people but was not a genocide either.

There are extremely inherent problems with the idea of reparations logistically.

1) any amount you offer is seen as the total the nation is willing to give in mitigation of the suffering of ancestors. Absolutely any amount offered is inherently insulting; you cannot monetise nor place a value on a life or on suffering. Whatever amount is offered, groups are automatically going to say "so this is what my ancestor's lives and suffering were worth???"

When you think about it, offering compensation like that is an extremely "white" attitude- it is effectively the same monetising of life that led to the slave trade in the first place.

2) how do you decide who gets it? People who have spent generations in poverty don't tend to be able to keep very clear family trees. People who are already very wealthy are well known for their ability to make theirs up. There would be a huge middle class advantage in any scheme.

That doesn't even take account of the accuracy of the records. How easily can you prove your ancestor was a slave?

You inevitably get tension between AA who get compensation and those unable to prove they are due it.

3) Why this generation? Why would this generation be the "lucky" one to get the restitution for their ancestors pain? Why not the generation alive in 2050? Or in the 1960's?

Now, if you wanted to compensate people for the segregation of the 1950s and 60s I would agree with that; many who directly experienced it are alive. But who in all the generations is most worthy of compensation for events 150 years ago?

There are loads more logistical issues

The germans were accused of exactly that, not paying enough and why the greeks rejected reparation offers.
 
I haven't abused anyone on this thread, except calling you a pathetic egotist for being triggered by a passing reference.

You really, really aren't as important as you think you are


I dont think i'm important lets see if you can go at least a few days with out mentioning me

It's not happened for a few years

Following me around like a dog on heat

You need to get spayed
 
I fear that the US would absolutely erupt if "white" dollars were seen to be handed out indiscriminately into black hands. That is not necessarily a reason not to do it of course.

I object to the use of the term holocaust as well. It is a very poor use of wording and not a good comparison to make, at all. The Holocaust was one specific event. You are refering to a genocide. The slave trade killed lots of people but was not a genocide either.

There are extremely inherent problems with the idea of reparations logistically.

1) any amount you offer is seen as the total the nation is willing to give in mitigation of the suffering of ancestors. Absolutely any amount offered is inherently insulting; you cannot monetise nor place a value on a life or on suffering. Whatever amount is offered, groups are automatically going to say "so this is what my ancestor's lives and suffering were worth???"

When you think about it, offering compensation like that is an extremely "white" attitude- it is effectively the same monetising of life that led to the slave trade in the first place.

2) how do you decide who gets it? People who have spent generations in poverty don't tend to be able to keep very clear family trees. People who are already very wealthy are well known for their ability to make theirs up. There would be a huge middle class advantage in any scheme.

That doesn't even take account of the accuracy of the records. How easily can you prove your ancestor was a slave?

You inevitably get tension between AA who get compensation and those unable to prove they are due it.

3) Why this generation? Why would this generation be the "lucky" one to get the restitution for their ancestors pain? Why not the generation alive in 2050? Or in the 1960's?

Now, if you wanted to compensate people for the segregation of the 1950s and 60s I would agree with that; many who directly experienced it are alive. But who in all the generations is most worthy of compensation for events 150 years ago?

There are loads more logistical issues

ok....
Firstly, holocaust has meaning outside 'The Holocaust'. The word is frequently used in other contexts (ie nuclear holocaust). It means death or destruction on a mass scale. Like what would happen if you removed the entire male population of town and villages to go be slaves in another country.

As for 'white dollars', there would be huge anger, but after a generation or two, that would be in the past, and there would no longer be any justification for continued hostility.

1) I don't believe people would be insulted. It depends on what form the reparations take. This sounds more like you're trying to find problems with the idea. I think African Americans would be glad of an unreserved apology as long as it had some weight behind to show that the apology is serious and meaningful.

2) Clearly lots of work would need to be done on that. It would be difficult indeed, but not impossible. People would need a good claim.

3) Because this is the generation of people storming congress waving confederate flags, and the generation of BLM and Trump. Its the generation where we realized how deep rooted racism is in US society, and how that racism is a legacy of slavery that hasn't gone away.

I understand there's logistical issues. Issues can be looked at and solved. They can also be mitigated through hard work and dedication to the ideal.

Reparations don't even have to take the form of 'money going to individuals', but should be developed in partnership with both the black community and the elite white community in the US who still clearly benefit from slave trade money.
 
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There’s also how far back in history is captured in this. Crusades, Mongol empire and the Assyrian Empire.
Then you have Cromwell in Ireland, the conquistadors and the New World colonies and their impact on indigenous populations.
The Japanese Empire who infamously used Chinese babies for bayonet practice.

To single out the slave trade, although as abhorrent and shameful humans have ever been, is not unique in this regard.
If you are going to go that far should we be looking at the French, Roman, Saxon and Vikings who invaded Britain and made slaves and/or serfs of the natives.

Go back far enough...
 
If you are going to go that far should we be looking at the French, Roman, Saxon and Vikings who invaded Britain and made slaves and/or serfs of the natives.

Go back far enough...


As I said I blame the first fish that crawled out the ocean. GET BACK IN THE SEA
 
Pope out of interest do you think African Americans who are descended from slaves are due reparations?


Africa, Ireland, China and South America should be given at the very least what America give to Israel every year to keep the Palestinians in Apartheid

Then the Native Americans should be given a sooooo much more and be able to decide what is the language, Cultural heritage and world view of the USA

It can start by saying the Americas were never found because there was already people there they can then get rid of the fake ness of independence too
 
Africa, Ireland, China and South America should be given at the very least what America give to Israel every year to keep the Palestinians in Apartheid

Then the Native Americans should be given a sooooo much more and be able to decide what is the language, Cultural heritage and world view of the USA

It can start by saying the Americas were never found because there was already people there they can then get rid of the fake ness of independence too
I think native Americans are the elephant in the room of this discussion.

The amount of (Federal) land that should be theirs as a minimum could be debated for decades.

I would suggest they should have a guaranteed minimum number of representatives in Congress as well
 
Oh, you've apologised since then as Covid got under your skin. (Same here).
CBA to read the intervening pages. Sterile debate between (presumably) people who might all be described as white middle class males if someone wanted to define us. (Not that I've been part of this debate). Yawn.
 
Oh, you've apologised since then as Covid got under your skin. (Same here).
CBA to read the intervening pages. Sterile debate between (presumably) people who might all be described as white middle class males if someone wanted to define us. (Not that I've been part of this debate). Yawn.
The standard of debate on this thread has been, for the most part, excellent